A Conversation with Artist Missy Dunaway

I have with me an artist who I've interviewed before, but in the midst of COVID and therefore from her house, this is Missy Dunaway. Thanks for being here in person today. Thank you for having me Lisa, The last time I believe we spoke about things like, uh, chickens. And was it a cat that we also had a conversation around at your House? Yeah. Thomas Thomas. The cat. Yeah, but you've moved on to animals of a different sort That's right. Yes. In fact, we have an example of this right behind us. And these are of the avian sort, I guess, not technically are they technically animals or just technic? Okay. Yeah. We put them broadly under the animal category, Right. Or creatures. We could see Creatures. Okay. Very good. And these are related to Shakespeare, Right? Tell me about this piece. So I am currently on the road to painting every bird mentioned by Shakespeare. Uh, it is about 64 species, but that number is subject to change. Um, and I've currently completed about a quarter of the whole collection. So it'll take me, uh, several more years. Um, but the idea is that each painting offers, um, information for the viewer as much information as possible, um, about natural science facts about the bird, and then also literary interpretation of how Shakespeare uses it as a symbol in his world. Um, so yeah, behind us, we have the Paragon Falcon, um, which, uh, even though Shakespeare, I think it's pretty safe to say that he was a, a falconer, um, and had a lot of experience with falconry specifically, the para gr Falcon is only mentioned, uh, one time in Romeo and Juliet In order to decide, uh, well, in order to go through and kind of create a map for yourself, did you read all of the works of Shakespeare? So I'm currently in the process of reading all of the works. I'm almost there. Uh, but luckily, um, my, uh, project is heavily based on researchers before me. So James Edmond, Harding, uh, wrote a book called the, uh, birds of Shakespeare in 1871. He was a pretty well known, um, English, ornithologist and naturalist. And, uh, so he already did all the hard work for me in locating the birds. And his book is one of the most valuable ones in my research. Um, that's where I started with this project, uh, partially because that's where I got the list. So how does one get interested in this in particular? It seems like a very specific thing that you're doing, which is kind of similar. You've done a lot of very specific things. You, you have kind of a diversity of interest, but you, you go broad and go deep. Yes, that's a good way to put it. Um, I, uh, I, I suppose that the project started, um, or the root of it was in, uh, college. Um, I had taken a Shakespeare course just to fill an elective. Um, and I wasn't even all that interested in Shakespeare. I just thought, you know, since I'm going to college, when I graduate, I wanna be a well-rounded person. And therefore I must know something about Shakespeare. And, um, I, I really was surprised. I was constantly surprised by how much I connected with his work, how it was so entertaining and insightful. And, um, I, uh, after my class, I would often get lunch with a computer science major and we would argue about Shakespeare and he, um, just one day he, he was like, it's just so overrated. I don't get it. I've never seen a Shakespeare play that I connect with. And instead of trying to convince him about the value of the themes or the artistry, um, I instead grasped at numbers that could quantify Shakespeare's talent. Um, so as a average American college graduate, my, uh, vocabulary is around 16,000 words and Shakespeare just in his 39 plays, I think 39, he demonstrates a vocabulary of over 30,000 words. Um, and he was also a word chemist. Like he made new words, he used slang, he created new, like just, um, uh, I mean, as a, what he contributed to language in general, anyone could appreciate and admire. Um, and so I said to my friend, I was, was talking about his vocabulary and I said like, just look at birds. He mentioned 64 different types of birds and that's just birds. Um, and when I said that, I thought, oh, that'd be a good painting. So I kept it in mind. And then, um, the first time that I tried to paint on this topic was as a artist in residence at, um, Vermont studio center where I had this huge studio space. So I was able to, um, like lay out an eight piece, eight foot piece of paper. And I did feathers from every bird mentioned in Shakespeare. And, uh, I was really proud of that piece and, um, still proud of it. And it found the perfect home at the Folger Shakespeare library. Um, but over the years, I mean, I did that piece when I was like 22. So ever since then, you know, I learned a little bit more about birds and along the way, I've just found inaccuracies in my, um, in my, uh, paintings of the feathers. Uh, cause I didn't know that much. So for example, a Krol, um, if you see just a picture of a KL in the sky, uh, you know, in a Google image search, which is what I was using pretty much, um, kestrels look like they're huge, like Hawks, but they're actually the size of a pigeon. So in my painting, the castl feathers, huge and other big birds have small feathers, things like that. So I always thought I really wanna do redo that painting with greater scientific accuracy about, you know, just the feathers in the rendering. Um, and COVID presented the opportunity. My whole schedule was cleared and I thought now's the time I'm gonna redo the Shakespeare painting. Um, so I redid it and it was sold through the gallery. Thank you, Portland art gallery. And, um, when it was done, I felt kind of not disappointed, but maybe just a little bit like, is that all there is like, I, it's such a good idea. I feel like there's more here. I don't want it to be over. So then I thought, okay, if I wanna expand it, the obvious answer is to do one painting for each bird. That's, that's the long story behind it. Yeah. How many birds in are you at this point? 17, but I think I'm gonna redo the mag pie. So I hate to knock myself back to 16, but I, yeah. How long does each of these pieces take you? So that's um, kind of a, um, more complex question because the, the actual rendering of it I'd say would take, um, between 50 and 70 hours. It's about two weeks to actually paint it. Um, however, the research behind it, uh, and revisions after it's done always take up time. Um, I'm not an ornithologist or an avian ecologist or a Shakespeare scholar by any stretch of the imagination. So, um, instead I've, uh, you know, to, to make up for those shortcomings, I've assembled a bit of a team of three different advisors to fact check, um, the anatomy of the birds with an ornithologist, uh, and a, uh, botanist to check the plants. This painting doesn't have any plants, but most of them do. Um, and then also a Shakespeare scholar, who's double checking, um, you know, to make sure I'm interpreting the text correctly. So all three of those advisors always have edits and revisions for me to make. So that adds on time. So I'd say, uh, yeah, each piece takes maybe a solid month of like research and writing and discussions and then the painting. So if you were a scientist, this would be the equivalent of, uh, publishing an article every time, the amount of work that you're actually putting into each of these pieces, these are your visual article. It almost seems like, Yes, that's exactly how I would describe my, the carpet series that I did as a Fulbrighter in Turkey. I was a researcher, but my findings were communicated in a series of paintings instead of written articles. So yes, exactly. Which is actually more of a thing now that qualitative research is including more visual pieces. So just sitting here, talking with you, I'm, it's, it's very interesting that, um, the different fields are coming out from different directions, but encouraging the same sort of approach. Yes. Yeah. I, I agree. And I like that, cuz I think it makes, um, the, the information more accessible because you're, um, you know, you're reaching more people, uh, you know, I don't think that you would have to under, you know, even know the English language to look at my painting and learn a little something about how Shakespeare, uh, writes about birds, um, or learn something about the bird in general. So that's definitely the idea I think, of, of using a visual form to communicate information is that it makes it more accessible to everybody. Yeah. That's a great point. And more People I should say Yes. Some people will probably resonate with it. Other people, it may not be as, as, um, may not resonate as much with them. But I think about the number of children, for example, who go to museums or who engage with art and because they don't necessarily have, uh, word expertise yet, but they do already have eyes that sort of, um, kind of creativity that's being, um, built in their little brains. I just, I find that really appealing. Yeah. The first time I read Shakespeare, I mean, he's not meant to be red. You're supposed to be watching it on stage. And I just leading up to the moment in high school when I was first introduced to Shakespeare, I thought it was literature cuz he's taught as literature, the plays are taught as literature. And I remember my high school teacher just having like really pumping us up about Shakespeare. Like you want romance? He's got it. You want action? He's got it. I was like, yeah, like I'm so excited. He's like, okay, let's flip, open the books. Now let's start on stands of line, whatever. And I'm looking at it. I was like, what am I looking at? It's just, this is just dialogue. I was so confused and it immediately turned me off. And um, yeah, I, I wish maybe that the first introduction would've been to actually go see a play. Cause I think the visual form would have been, um, a more relatable to me and accessible to me at that age. And uh, not only that, but um, but I'm not sure cuz sometimes when I was in high school, I did see a Shakespeare play and the language still felt inaccessible and I had no idea what was going on. Um, but in a painting, uh, hopefully the language is put into a very, um, immediate form. You've done a lot of work with realism and in particular you've worked with one of our other artists, um, Rodney Dennis, and, um, I'm, I'm, it takes so much work to do the, the realistic paintings and the realistic pieces that both of you do like hours and hours and hours. Um, tell me about that process. You know, I love the hours and hours and hours. I, at first I thought there's no way I can do this, but I really wanted to get better at drawing. Uh, it's always been my, um, weakness as an artist. Uh, I have a pretty good sensibility for color, but my drawing is just pretty weak. So, um, the, uh, academy of real estate where me and rod, um, met as students, uh, yeah, that's what they focus on. And so, um, but you have to be prepared to put in several hundred hours into a single drawing. One drawing will command an entire semester and you just have to go to a different place when you're doing it. It's very meditative. Um, but actually I was like crushing podcasts on Shakespeare. So it has also been handy like research time, um, cuz you're just like devouring, um, you know, audio, uh, news and podcasts. But anyway, um, I really feel like the, uh, just um, the way that technology is going and social media. I mean, we talk about it so often, like how information's just getting cut up into smaller and smaller soundbites. Um, I just found myself craving like long form deep dives. And I, I have found that at, um, the academy of real estate and it was nice cuz sometimes I was worried like it's my attention span permanently damaged by social media. And I can only listen to a song if it's under three minutes and things and um, Nope, that's definitely not the case. You can get your attention span back. It takes a little bit of practice, but um, you know, me and rod were not even, I mean, uh, I'd say, you know, other students, there's so many students that have come to that school that had no background in art and might not have at first had the attention span to do it or the patients I should say, but it's a skill that you can exercise and once you're used to it, it's really rewarding and relaxing and so refreshing at, you know, right now I'm, I'm thinking when I look at this piece that you brought today, which I know we're gonna show, um, online for people who are watching the video version of this podcast, that to put an entire, I guess semester perhaps is that how much time it takes into one piece and have that be your one final thing that is unusual for someone who's working in art? Correct. I guess maybe unusual ever since. Um, I don't know, like maybe impressionism, like I, I, I think up until, um, so impressionists were really the first to break out the studio and go outdoors cuz um, one of the technological advances of the industrial revolution was tubed paint. So up until that point, you're just grinding down your own paint in your studio and the um, you know, there's a lot of gear, it's just, it's not a transportable hobby or, or career. So, um, when tubed paint was created, people could go outdoors and then they're studying natural light and then you have to paint fast cuz you're keeping up with light changing. Um, and then of course with expressionism and um, I mean then artwork just broke free, like especially with photography that came around, why labor over doing something that's super realistic when you can take a photo, like artists were liberated to explore all these different things to express and, and to, um, capture. So, uh, yeah, it, um, oh, I've lost my train of thought. I think you were talking about, um, working on one piece for a semester, which it sounds like I can guess where you're going, that this maybe used to be a thing. And then with this, um, these new technologies, it became that you were able to do more things in less time. Thank you. Yes, exactly. Um, so, uh, culturally today, uh, putting that much time into a single piece is unusual, but I think in the grand scheme of art, um, it's uh, there was a time when it was the normal thing to do. Um, and there's a, there's a pretty big comeback of realist painters, um, like contemporary realist painters right now that I'm just loving. Um, so I think time investment, um, you know, it's, it's different from artists to artists. Sometimes I'm really surprised at, especially at Portland art gallery, there's such an array of styles and occasionally I'll be speaking to an artist that has a pretty minimal approach. And I assume that wow, that like they probably get this done in one day and then I find out it, no, it takes like a month and a half. Like it's, it does take sometimes the, um, the, the image itself could be very deceiving to the amount of work and time that goes into it. Well, that's similar to say medicine where somebody can say, Hey, can you look at this mole? Oh, that's only gonna take you two seconds, but it, it took you the two seconds to look at the Mo, but it took you all of the years of education that brought you to the place where you can look at the Mo and say, oh yeah, that's, don't worry about that. Or you should have that looked at further. So I do think you're right, that you can never really know what brings someone to a place of creating a piece and how much time that is taken. Right. It's a hard thing to kind of understand the backstory. It's true. Um, and, and, uh, yes, exactly. Especially with, um, a piece like the, the Shakespeare, um, project I'm working on now, like when the brush is actually touching the paper, I could probably whittle that down to maybe 65 hours. But then, um, when I'm, when I think about the planning and the compositional planning and the research, um, that just adds on the time And you're not just doing the birds, you are engaging in multiple different things at once. I mean, I'm just amazed by the array of projects that I've seen you work on and you just came back from Kenyan not too long ago. So how do you keep your mind kind of simultaneously on all of these various tracks and moving them all forward? I think it's the only way that I can stay focused on so many different things is by researching so many different things because it keeps it fresh. You know, there are definitely days where I'm like, I cannot look at another bird and think I don't wanna paint another feather for the rest of my life. And then, um, you know, I'll spend six weeks in Kenya and art residency or I'll, um, I'll do a school assignment, um, you know, painting a cast sculpture or, um, you know, work in my sketchbook. That's very freeing and I can do whatever I want. And then after enough time I'm like, okay, enough of this, like I'm ready for a feather again. So, um, I think it does actually keep me very engaged to bounce around that way. Tell me about Kenya. Oh, well, so I was there for six weeks. This was an artist in residence program that I was accepted to back in 2019. Um, my goal has always been to do one artist in residence program a year, um, because it's pretty economical way for artists to travel, uh, long term. So I get to stay for long visits. There's great cultural immersion. You also meet other artists while you're there. So it's great networking and making friends. Um, it just really, um, has everything that I want out of travel in one, you know, um, one opportunity. So yeah, the, uh, Ola pongee farm is the name of the residency I was in, in Kenya, in Laikipia county, just at the foothills of Mount Kenya. Um, and I had to defer it for COVID twice. So, um, I had been waiting to go for, you know, with, oh, excuse me, with when I was accepted and then having to defer it was three years of waiting and, um, yeah, it was, it was funny cuz I had originally applied. Um, I normally apply with a site specific project. So I wanted to add a new chapter to my visual journal, my, um, visual travel log, which is available at the gallery. Um, it was published in 20, uh, 20, 20, 20 21, um, the traveling artist to visual journal. So originally Kenya was gonna be another chapter in that book, but because of it defers in COVID it ended up being that the book was published before I went. So I ended up going to Kenya and um, kind of having this really nice opportunity to revisit this project that was kind of over. And it was really nice cuz I hadn't painted in my travel journal in several years and I haven't traveled and um, it was really refreshing and nice to sort of bring that project back to life. And now I have it in my head to maybe do a second volume. So as I'm reading the work that, um, Susan, Cheryl Axelrod, um, created in the art matters blog and remembering my interview with you early on in the podcast and having, uh, spent time with you over the last few years, since you've worked with the art gallery, I've really been struck with how driven you are as an individual. I mean you create goals, you set a path forward with your goals, you follow through on them and, and you also are working at the art gallery and making sure that you're making a living. And um, I know that, uh, your husband, Joe is working on his MBA and I mean you just have so much going on. Um, did you have a sense when you were going through your undergraduate degree that you were gonna have all these various interests? Were you already that driven and did you already know what direction you wanted to go in? I think when, um, when I was an undergrad, I thought that I was always very driven to create ambitious work and just keep creating. Um, I never put off assignments. I was usually just painting all the time and if I was done with an assignment, I was painting again for my own pleasure. So it, I think I've always been, um, sort of assisted by the fact that I'm happiest when I'm painting anyway. So I mean, there have been times when I thought this isn't working out, like I'm not, I'm not gonna make it and I'm never gonna sell another painting and I'm ready to quit. And then I'm sort of liberated like, oh, well I have so much free time now. All right, well, what am I gonna do? I guess I'll go paint. It's just always a thing I'm doing. So I just figure if I'm gonna do it either way. I might as well continue putting my work out there and you know, and, and then a painting does sell eventually or I get a new opportunity and it moves me along. Um, but yeah, it's been, uh, I think so. I think that is partially what keeps me driven is just the fact that I feel happiest and most natural when I am creating. Um, but, uh, I don't, I, I don't think I really, um, anticipated how I'd have to cobble together and income from so many different sources. Um, but as soon as I started asking professional artists who were out of college, how do you do it? And how'd you get into your first gallery? They all had a very different meandering story that all the one similarity is that they all had to do it, you know, by, through several different sources and several different meets. They either had a part-time job or they did it on the side or they, you know, were teaching at the same time and illustration plus gallery sales. So I think, um, you know, the more and more people I asked, I've always been very conscious of how little I know and never shy away from asking advice, um, from someone more experienced than you. I mean, it's by the third person you ask that you just get the gist of like, okay, this is what it's gonna take. Um, but sometimes it does kind of feel like, I don't wanna say last man standing, but just continuing to stick with it. And it will eventually, it's only a matter of time. And, um, even when I was applying to my first residencies, I was rejected over and over and over again. But I just thought, you know, this is the game of numbers and eventually one of these is gonna accept me. So I always had it in my head, like apply to a hundred and you'll get at least one and I never had to apply to a hundred. I applied to about 20 and I got one and that just kind of encouraged me like, okay, yeah. Just think of this as a game of numbers, increase your odds by doing, you know, more, a little bit more than you think you have to and something will come through It. I mean, it really is fascinating to listen to what you've put into your career because I think you, as an artist, you're, you're putting out works that there's no guarantee they will sell. There's a there's I like doing this work. I'm gonna plan to do this work. I'm gonna work really hard, but I don't know. Maybe it does. Maybe it doesn't. So there is an act of faith involved in all of this as well. Yes. You know, the, but it makes it more rewarding when it's not a guarantee and it does sell sometimes I think of great expectations and I'm like, how nice it would be if there's some secret admirer out there who's just buying up like every single piece I have, like in that, um, book or the movie. But then, um, I guess in the movie he's an artist. And, but then sometimes I think like, I mean, cuz at the end of that story, he's so disappointed to find out that all that time he was being propped up by a single person. I haven't read this since high school, so I should, I might be getting this totally wrong. I believe it's great expectations. Um, but yeah, I sometimes I feel that way, like, okay. Yeah. I don't have a, a benefactor who, where it's a guarantee that it's going to sell and I'll be supported, but that means everyone who buys my work really has the choice not to and they choose to acquire one. And so that must mean something to them and that's, it makes it more special to know that they didn't have to, you know? Yeah. That's, I think also a really great point that somebody looks at what you've created and says, yeah, I value that and that that's such an important feeling. And to know that that piece is going to end up back in their office or their home or wherever they end up putting it. So maybe there's also in addition to making money off of the pieces, it's always the sense that, you know, you're, you're creating enjoyment for someone else in their life, in the future. Yeah. It's pretty, um, I'm in a, a very unique role being a staff member and the, uh, represented artist because I've put up a painting of my own or um, you know, Emma should do the selection. So maybe there's a piece that's up that I love and people walk by it. They don't notice it at all. And it's like the invisible painting and one after another, after another. And, and you start to think like, oh, I really thought I had something there, but I guess I didn't. And then someone will stop and it's like, they met their soulmate and they're so wrapped up in this painting. And it's almost like what I had said about applying to something it's a game of numbers. Um, it same with, with viewers, sometimes a hundred people will walk by and not pay any attention, but one person, it will mean a lot to them and it's really special and, and beautiful. I'm so happy that as a staff member, I get to see that happen. Um, yeah, cuz it really, it makes it all worthwhile as an artist to keep creating, even if the audience as a whole, um, generally is not connecting with the work. When you get that, when you see that one deep connection, it's really, um, profound. Well, Missy, you have inspired me. Um, I think just to keep working hard really, and to have faith, I'm not a visual artist, but I, I think there are parallels that many of us can draw in our own lives. And I think you're right. I think sometimes if you're worried about external validation, then it it's easy to get discouraged. But if you just keep kind of tapping back into what drives you internally, then you keep moving forward and then maybe you do get the external validation, which is nice. But it sounds like that's not the entire thing for you. So I've really enjoyed this conversation. Thank you. I have too, Lisa, thank you so much for having me back. I've been speaking with artist, Missy Dunaway, who you can meet if you go to the Portland art gallery because not only is she a represented artist, but she also is a staff member. Um, but I certainly do encourage you to look into the work that she does. I mean, it's quite varied. You'll find birds, you'll find tapestries, you'll find other really wonderful pieces. And um, I know that we're gonna see a lot of great things out of Missy Dunaway, um, in the years to come thank you for joining me today. Thank you.