Art as a Portal to the Unconscious: Victoria Zurkan

Dr. Lisa Belisle: Hello, I'm Dr. Lisa Belisle, and you are listening to or watching Radio Maine, our video podcast where we explore and celebrate creativity and the human spirit. Today I have with me Victoria Zurkan, who is a licensed marriage and family therapy therapist, but also a painter, an artist. So I always really enjoy having people tell me about the sort of intersection and divergence of the work that they do that enables them to continue to create. And, Victoria, you and I are going to have a really interesting conversation about this. I can tell. So welcome.

Victoria Zurkan: Thank you. Thank you for having me here.

Dr. Lisa Belisle: Yes, my pleasure. And you're joining us from your studio in Portland, which normally you would drive out here. Today it happened to snow the day we're recording in March. That's the way Maine is. But let's start with your art, since I know that this is a big part of what you do on a daily basis. Tell me about, first of all, your background in animation.

Victoria Zurkan: I actually went abroad for my bachelor's degree. I was lucky because my mother is a software engineer, which was back in the day, like, you know, not very many women doing that. So she, American Airlines bought the reservation system, so she and my dad relocated to Paris. And so I had the opportunity to go to the American University there. And there's also a Parsons in Paris. So I started taking classes at the Parsons in Paris way, way back then. And when I graduated, I moved to New York, and I didn't. I knew I wanted to do something with creativity or, you know, doing something with the arts, but I didn't know what. And I fell into animation. Back then, they did animation by hand, so I fell into an animation group, and we literally would cut things out. That was my job, cutting little things out. And they did an MTV id, which was kind of cool. So it was for an MTV id. And so I continued with animation. I ended up moving to San Francisco, and I got a job at a place called Colossal, which was a large animation studio. And they did mostly commercials. And I did that for a few years, and then I wiped out.

Background is I'm actually my mom's. My mom's mom was from Hungary. So I really wanted to go to Budapest. For some reason, I had it in my head I really wanted to go to Budapest. So I wrote a letter to somebody that had an animation studio in Budapest, and I put it in the mail, and I was waiting, and then they were like, yeah, come on out. So I went out there with a job in animation and lived in Budapest for a year. But around my latter 20s, I started thinking, okay, do I really want to work in animation? As I got older, I was already kind of foreseeing that it might be a field where there was a lot of demands and a lot of weekends. And so I thought, well, the other thing I really like to do is psychology. Like, I enjoyed. I always felt like I enjoyed asking people, like, what's your life like? And reading biographies and understanding people. So, yeah, so then I transitioned to. I started taking classes in Budapest for my undergrad, like for psychology, which was really funny. Like, I took one class with a Hungarian guy who was a statistics teacher, which was really funny. And so I just did the class with him. And then I applied for a master's program in London. I wanted to stay in Europe, so I applied for a master's program in London. So I did a year in London at a master's program, and then I was ready to move back to the States. I was around 30 at that point. So I moved to Los Angeles. And I recognize that my degree didn't really transfer because, you know, England and America have their own restrictions. So I did an MFT in LA and then I just finished it up there. And then I ended up moving from there to San Francisco, and then I started working in San Francisco.

Dr. Lisa Belisle: So it sounds like you've been crisscrossing the globe and then you've crisscrossed over here to Maine. So what's the main connection?

Victoria Zurkan: So my brother was married to a woman that was from Maine, and so he met her in San Francisco. And so I have two older brothers, and they were both in the Bay Area. And he met his wife. They got married and lived in California for a few years. And then they decided to move back to Maine. So I would go to Maine every summer for about 10 years. And then I started getting older and San Francisco started to decline a lot. Like the city became kind of a dangerous place. It was very expensive, and I just was ready to downsize, becoming like more of a smaller city. San Francisco can be kind of overwhelming with the traffic, and it's very overwhelming. So my partner and I decided to move to Maine. So we moved out to Maine, and my mom came as well. She was also in California, so she lives now a mile away. She lived two hours outside of San Francisco. So we decided, well, if you were going to go, I'm going to go. And so now I just have one brother and a niece that lives in Marin in California.

Dr. Lisa Belisle: Well, we're glad that you're here. And I know in talking to you because you regularly come to our Portland art gallery openings. So it's been so much fun to get to know you over really a period of years, I think now. And what I've enjoyed is that you regularly are bringing in to our conversations new and interesting things that you're working on. So I think it was a few months ago that you said, oh, I'm doing this thing and it involves AI, but it also involves the art that I do. And you showed me some early pictures and most recently you showed me some finished product pictures. And there's a lot of creativity that you're bringing to your process. So talk to me about that. Talk to me about why you make the decisions you do to pursue projects and some of the ones that you've been working on recently.

Victoria Zurkan: When I first started working, painting, and I knew I wanted to be like an artist, but I didn't know. I thought, okay, I don't want to be a struggling artist. I want to be able to make a living. So I pursued as a career to be a therapist. And then I've always wanted to be a fine artist. Like, that was kind of like my dream. So I always painted. And then around, I guess about 20 years ago, getting up there in age, I really started to take classes and I started to study like atelier style classes, which is more like, you know, how to really draw and how to paint. So I took classes for many years. I still take classes because I feel like it's a never ending learning process. So, you know, when you first start out, you're painting like portraits and you're painting, you know, vegetables and apples and like things like that and still lifes. And it takes a lot of courage to start to, you know, I used to just paint fun things, anything, right? And then I studied and then it was like, oh, okay, now that I understand painting a little bit better, it's hard to break out of just trying to get better, to actually making paintings, you know, things that are like from ideas. And then of course, like the kind of paintings that I do, I'm not sure that they're things that I think people necessarily, unless you are maybe a collector. I feel like, you know, my dream is just to make paintings that I want to make and they sell. So I'm not trying to make paintings that are for tourists or I don't want to make paintings that are like landscapes, even though I love them. You know, there's nothing wrong with that. But I always wanted to use like ideas and more narrative and more surreal and like ideas like that. So I started trying to do that a little bit more. Probably in the last, I'd say five or six years, where I started to try to think a little bit more about like, well, what's important to me, what is, you know, what interests me as a painter and subject wise. And so I thought about it and then this last series, which is interesting that I've been painting this long and I never really created a series which is something that I think artists do, you know, they have series. And I always just kind of painted what I liked, painted things in my house because I kind of made my house look like it's very creative environment. I made it kind of surreal and interesting in the house because my partner Brent, he actually knows how to build. So we did things like we made art installations in our bathroom. And so it's like a very imaginative environment here. Like, he also did this whole room, this whole studio. We changed it up. He put on the ceiling like wood and we pushed out some of the walls. And so he was able to kind of help me with my fantasy of like, what can this room really look like? Anyway, so this last series, it was last year. It was winter and I had this idea. I was like, wow, wouldn't it be interesting to take pictures of winter scenes outside, but then add something like a very shiny something object to offset the more, less colorful environment? Because when it's snowing, you know, it's kind of muted colors. And so I was thinking, oh, that'd be kind of cool to have something like really shiny and metallic. And so I was like, well, what could I make? And then I thought, well, maybe I'll do like an animal. Because I also wanted to do less figurative and do more like animals and nature scenes, but not necessarily like plein air. So I thought, okay, I'll take pictures. So I had a friend that's a photographer take scenes outside of winter last year. And then I thought, okay, then I'll find images, like online of different animals. So I found a picture. I thought, okay, a lion might be interesting, like a shiny lion. So that was the first one I did. And so, but then I was like, well, how am I gonna do this? Like, how am I gonna get a lion, a shiny lion? So I thought, you know, should I do Photoshop? Like, how can I make this object shiny. And I thought, well, let me just try it in AI. And I know everybody has such a stance against AI and art, but as a tool, it's so helpful. So I put it in AI, I put a picture of the background that I took, or my friend took of the snow, and I put a picture of a lion. And I said, make this lion shiny against this winter background. And then it did it. And I was like, oh my gosh, this is so cool. So then I painted it. So then I did a few more animals like that. Okay, let me do a moose. Let me do an eagle. Because you see a lot of eagles around here and kind of symbolic of like, America and like, oh, an eagle. So I did a metal eagle. And then it started to develop. And I was in New York and I saw at the Frick, and I thought, oh, there was like this old painting of a painter painting a nude. You know, I don't. I should have like wrote down the name of the painting. But anyway, so I thought, oh, wouldn't that be funny if they were actually painting a robot? And so then I put that picture, that painting in, and I said, make this guy painting a robot. So I did that. And then I painted that. And then I was thinking, oh, wouldn't it be, you know, because robots are getting to be like, I'm not like a robot type of person. I'm not like, oh, I love robots, you know, but I was just thinking the way the world is turning and AI is becoming, you know, we hear all these things about robots being developed and robots taking over, like science fiction. Like, we never thought this would really come to fruition, and here we are. And so then I was like, oh, wouldn't it be funny if like, a bar scene with a robot. So put that in and got a bar scene. And then, yeah, so it just kind of like unfolded like that. And so again, it's hard because I don't think artists appreciate it. When you say AI and art, people get very like, oh, God, no, AI and art, never, don't do that. But for me, it's just been like, wow, I have all these ideas, but I don't know how to actually create them. Like, I was doing things like taking pictures and posting, you know, cutting them out and putting them on a canvas and, you know, drawing them and doing it this way. And this is like so much easier. I could just like come up with these crazy ideas and then get a painting or get a picture and then paint it. So I was very intrigued. I mean, I like to do that, but I feel like a lot of artists don't appreciate that. So I don't know.

Dr. Lisa Belisle: As somebody who has a deep background in psychology and also you are an artist and you're suggesting that artists don't like the idea of using AI. Are you able to guess as to what would be sort of the psychological underpinnings of not wanting to use AI?

Victoria Zurkan: Well, I think it's more like, you know, especially in the atelier world, like, people are very much like, they like to do the old 19th century where they use, you know, rabbit skin glue and they, you know, do their own canvases and do everything from, you know, from beginning to end by hand, which is great, you know, and again, but sometimes I feel like people do use. Artists do use Photoshop all the time because again, like, how do you make an object look like metal? You know, that's a hard, hard thing to try to imagine. I mean, some artists can really imagine it in their head, what metal looks like and how it would shine. But I'm more of a person that I really need to have a visual to look at, to paint, you know, so like, I would. If I were to paint something metal, I would have to have something metal in front of me in order to paint metal, because I can't paint from my imagination metal. So, but yeah, I think because of, you know, there's so much talk about it, the whole data centers taking up so much for the environment. It's bad for the environment. So for me, it's been helpful and I feel guilty when I use it. But I have to say, like, another thing I like to use is for my therapy practice. I usually, like, sometimes I get clients that are not very proactive in talking and I'm doing all the work trying to think of questions and stuff. So I sometimes make up worksheets. I put in a the background of the client, and I say create a worksheet for this client to answer these questions regarding what very specifically what their issues are. And I find that to be really helpful. So it's been like, for me, AI has been helpful. Yeah. So I am using it.

Dr. Lisa Belisle: I'm glad you're willing to even take a guess as to what people's objections are. And I think it's, for me, I think about the people that currently, for example, love music and love vinyl. And we have a whole group of people who have never given away their vinyl collections because this is the way they like to listen to music. And then we have people who are way on the other end of the spectrum, and they're doing technopop, for example. What I like about AI is that it can be used in different ways. And I think while some people argue that it decreases our ability to be creative, it sounds like you are actually integrating it into your creative process. And it doesn't mean that you're saying, oh, if you want to use rabbit skin, like, my way is better. You're saying, well, that way is a good way, and here's the way I'm going to use it for myself.

Victoria Zurkan: I even showed this new series to one of my teachers that, again, was like an atelier style, and he's always kind of been like a mentor. His name's Noah Buchanan. He's a pretty big artist. Like, he shows in New York, and he's, you know, more established. And he was like, yeah, I don't think AI is a good idea. I think it would be much better if you would have done this by hand. And I was like, well, okay, but like, I don't think I could have done that by hand. Like, okay, I don't. I mean, I guess I could have, but it would have also meant that. I'm not sure what the difference would really be. Like, okay, so let's say that I would have made a scene because I used to do things like that. Like, I have a painting, right during COVID that I got a bunch of friends to come over and pose as if I had an idea. And so like, a lot of painters do that old painting of on the raft. I forgot the name of that one. Like, something of the raft. But it's an old painting where everybody's on a raft. And like, so they redo it in different ways because it's kind of like a famous painting. So I thought, okay, I'll do that and say we're all in the same boat. And I was really interested in everybody's reaction to COVID because some people were like, you know, so like, I'm gonna wear a mask and don't be around me and get away. And other people were like, we must go on, and business must go on. And children were lonely. You know, they were home and not being able to play with other kids because of it. You know, animals were happy because they were able to stay with their families. And you know, people adopted more animals. Some people got so depressed, like a lot of suicides probably happened. A lot of people died of COVID. You know, there was like all these different reactions to COVID. So I put, I made a boat and then I put everybody. I had like maybe 10 different friends who posed in different reaction type modes. And then I put it on the canvas and I, you know, painted each person and made it into a boat. And it was kind of like we're all in the same boat, all trying to head to like safety or whatever. And yeah, I mean, that was it. That's another way to do it. Another way I could have just taken the pictures, probably put it in AI and had AI create an image for me with all the images that I put in. I don't know, it was just like an easier way to create an idea.

Dr. Lisa Belisle: I agree with you. I mean, it's there's a way that you are working, it's a tool and you're working with the tool to try to achieve an outcome. And I think one of the other things that I hear is pushback is that it becomes too easy that you can ask AI for something and it just spits out a novel, spits out a memoir, spits out an image. But that's not actually true. As someone that has used a lot of AI, both as a physician, but also in, for example, organizing content to benefit not only in the creative field, but also in the healing fields. It's not automatic. It's not like you don't go through the process of actually having to work with whatever your AI tool is. You still have to engage creatively and actually it causes you to need to hone your requests and your, I mean, move beyond prompts that are just copy paste. So I feel like it's creativity in a different way. And certainly there are some safety, some guardrails we need to put around it. But I mean, I just think being more open minded around the way that it is used and really trying to understand it before outright rejecting it might be worthwhile. Just my thought.

Victoria Zurkan: No, I agree, like even with writing, that's another little thing I'm doing on the side is I wrote during COVID I wrote a book with my mom that was a kind of like. Well, it's a complicated story, but it's a thriller. And I wrote it with her. Like we each took turns. She's a writer. So we went back and forth and afterwards I was like, let me see what would happen if I put chapter by chapter in AI and see what it came up with. So I did that and it like, I wouldn't say that it was good, it was interesting. But if I ever have the time, which it seems to never have the time, I would love to sit down and see what I wrote, see what AI wrote and try to kind of do a little bit of a combination. So yeah, again, I would never like put the whole thing in and expect it to write, rewrite my whole story or whatever. But, but as a tool to be like, okay, well what would you, like almost like bouncing off another person. Well, what, how would you write this? Okay, let me see and let me compare and sit down and really focus on this. So yeah, I mean, I agree. I think it's an interesting tool. I don't like it that it would take jobs from people. Like, that's, you know, that's one thing that's scary is that I feel like a lot of people, a lot of my clients, like I have this one client that he's in his mid-40s and he wants to retire, which I'm like, whoa, okay. But he's like, yeah, my job is going to become obsolete because AI is going to take over. And so his prediction is that my job's going to be obsolete. His job's going to be obsolete. And that he's preparing for, for, you know, a transition into like, okay, well, I have to save my money and retire because I'm not, there's going to be no jobs. And that's scary. I don't like that. So I don't, I mean it is kind of a mixed bag. Like, yeah, I don't want robots going over and being used for, you know, violence and war and all that stuff. And I, I don't want it to be used. Like, like if you go to San Francisco now, you see all those cars that are self driving cars and you know, it's like, oh, that's such a fun novelty. But then like, well, that's actually taking a job from someone else, right? Like someone that might be an Uber driver or, or now there's even like deliveries that are little robots in LA and stuff. And so that takes away people doing delivery jobs. So I can't, I, I can't even guess what's gonna happen. Like, I don't, you know, I can't even like what would happen if nobody had jobs. I mean that's, that's scary thought too. Especially for young people, I think, oh my gosh. You know, I feel like for young people, it must be really scary right now because their future is very unknown.

Dr. Lisa Belisle: That's very true. People who are preparing for a job that currently exists, but in four years after getting one's degree may not, where it's going to look completely different. So I agree. I don't think we should take it lightly, this idea of using AI, because there are implications of it. I just, I like what you're saying about this is a tool. This is a tool I've used in my case for this specific thing. And it seems like it's been very worthwhile for me. And trying to understand what it means at the human level, I think is kind of the direction that ultimately we should be going in. Coming back to the human level, I'm wondering what role do you think art plays or could play in healing, especially for situations where people have substance use disorder or emotional concerns. I mean, you have this lovely parallel and interwoven path. So do you see possibilities? I know art therapy is an actual field, music therapy, there are absolutely things that are being used in concrete ways. But for people who aren't necessarily going to an art therapist, are there ways that creativity and art can be used in healing?

Victoria Zurkan: Absolutely, I think. Well, first of all, I think making something feels so good. You know, you make anything, you're like, look what I made. Or, you know, you cook something and you're like, look what I cooked. You know, so I mean, I think creativity is amazing and it feels really good. And that's why people do it, or they should do it if they, you know, if they can. But I, my whole career, people always like, why don't you do art therapy? Why don't you do it? You can combine the two. Which, as I've gotten older, I kind of think, well, maybe that would be a good idea. But, and I have like ideas about that. Like, I would. I really wanted to do some Mommy and Me and Daddy and Me for like, one thing that always makes me sad is when people get divorced and then there's this kind of custody battle that goes on. And so I always thought, like, oh, that would be a nice thing to do is like, try to have the kids with the parents and make paintings. But also it's a way to facilitate conversation. So that was another idea I had, which I have not done yet because, you know, again, I'm full of ideas. But it's like, it's hard to get them rolling, you know. But I ended up taking this class. I remember it was in Berkeley. It was, you know, because as a professional, you probably have to do the same thing as, do you have to get CEUs. Like, we have to get CEUs every two years to maintain a license. So I took a class, and I thought, oh, yeah, this is like, whatever. But it was. You were supposed to draw, and then after you draw, you hone in on an area of the drawing, and then you do like a meditation, and then you walk into that area of the drawing, and you walk the client through. Like, so what do you, what do you hear? What do you taste? What do you smell? What do you feel with your other senses? And then you go, okay, well, what does this place remind you of? It is so fascinating. It is such a portal into the unconscious. It's amazing. I did it, and I was like, oh, my gosh, this is amazing. Like, I ended up like being in some theater, and the feeling was like kind of feeling alone. And then I just remembered being a kid and like those times where you feel very lonely as a child. And it just like it was such a portal into my unconscious that I was like, oh, wow. Like this, it is very powerful as a tool for hitting the unconscious, for facilitating conversation, for making people feel good about creating something. So, yeah, I think it is really a great way to help people, for sure.

Dr. Lisa Belisle: I've enjoyed our conversation. I always enjoy our conversation. So whenever I see you at one of the Portland Art Gallery openings, I'm just thrilled to see you see pictures of your new puppy. So I hope your new puppy's doing well, because what a cutie. How can people, Victoria, actually see your art?

Victoria Zurkan: First of all, thank you. I love the community that you created. That is amazing. I remember when I would come visit, so my brother lives in the same building of the Portland arca, and I would be like, oh my gosh, this looks so fun. Like, I love this little, like, what they're doing right here. And I always like to go to the openings, and I've met people there. I really enjoy it. Sadly, a lot of times I'm working Thursday evening, so it's hard for me to. But I try to clear my schedule so I could at least go for like an hour or something and just put my toe in and be there.

Dr. Lisa Belisle: Hi.

Victoria Zurkan: So, yes. So thank you for creating that space. So okay, to see my art on Instagram, it's at V, like my name, Victoria, V Zurkan, like my last name, Z U R K A N. And then I have a website, Victoria Zurkan dot com. And I'm also trying to start teaching. I really, really love teaching art. Like, I have such a passion for art. Like, those are my people. That's what I want to be around. So I was like, you know what? I really need to start teaching. So I did teach some at the Rue and Seer. They had some kind of like, they went under, unfortunately, but they were doing classes there. So I taught portrait. I just started to. I'm going to start teaching at South Portland Community Center. I'm going to do a portrait workshop on May 9th and 16th where I have a live model, Brent, my partner. And then I'm going to teach people how to measure and draw and do all the features. And then we probably won't have time, but if we do have time, I'm going to teach people to transfer their drawings onto a canvas. So that will be the first step for if they wanted to start painting. So, yeah, so that's what I'm doing.

Dr. Lisa Belisle: Well, I appreciate your saying that about the community that we're building in the Portland Art Gallery. And certainly Emma and Sean and Jess and Kevin, they are very, we are very intentional around wanting to have people in, to engage with art because it is such a wonderful thing to have these beautiful pieces on the walls and people do respond to them. And so when we see people like you, Victoria, who come to the art gallery openings, it's very gratifying because for us, it's like, it's kind of like when you cook something and you're like, oh, look at this delicious thing that I made that we're going to eat together. You know, we have these artists, these create these beautiful pieces, and we're like, look at these beautiful pieces. And I think it creates this wonderful energy. So I really appreciate your saying that, and I look forward to seeing you again at one of our upcoming openings. I encourage people to, as you said, go find you on Instagram, maybe find you as a teacher. Go to your website to learn more about your art. But it's been a pleasure to talk with you today. I've been speaking with Victoria Zurkan. She is a licensed marriage and family therapist, and she's also a painter, an artist, a teacher. So many more things. And I will see you again very soon at one of our openings, I hope. Victoria, thank you for being here today.

Victoria Zurkan: Thank you. I felt like it was such an honor to ask me to do this, so I really appreciate it. Thank you.

Dr. Lisa Belisle: Well, the honor is all mine. I appreciate your being with me. Have a good until I see you again. How's that sound?

Victoria Zurkan: Yes, I'm sure I will see you hopefully next First Thursday in April. Absolutely.

Dr. Lisa Belisle: Bye.

Victoria Zurkan: Bye. Yeah. Okay. Thank you, Sam.