Betsy Evans Hunt and International Acclaimed Photographer Todd Webb on Building a Legacy

It is my very, um, my, my very special pleasure to have in the studio with me, uh, a woman who spent time with one of, I would say, the icons of American photography arguably. Um, and this is Betsy Evans Hunt. Thanks for coming in today. Thanks. Happy to be here. So I, I don't wanna minimize what you also did over the course of your own career, but you also studied photography. You also owned a gallery. I mean, you, you did a lot of things in this field before you even met Todd. Yes, I did. I, I, um, I did, I wrote my thesis on, um, Alfred Siegels in Georgia O'Keefe. Um, and so it was so funny to meet Todd years later who was friends with them. But I also had a stint, sort of a wild stint in New York where I worked for, um, Robert Maplethorpe. Um, so I managed his studio in the 1980s and met a lot of the, um, the players during that time in terms of the people involved with the photography business. So, So I'm wondering, uh, so for those people who might be on the, maybe weren't alive during the eighties, let's just say that mm-hmm. , tell me about the Robert Maplethorpe experience, cuz he was quite controversial at the time, The time he was, he was, um, he was just transitioning into being sort of accepted in society. He had done a series of work which was, um, underground sort of, um, s and m gay portraits and that sort of thing. And then he was transitioning into doing, um, portraits. Um, he did a body of work on a, um, um, woman bodybuilder named Lisa Lion. Um, and he also did black male nudes, which were, um, more sculptural, um, in any event. But he did a lot of stuff for Interview Magazine. And so I was sort of hired to be his, his gal Friday. And I, um, you know, would greet people and serve them coffee. It was so embarrassing cause it was, um, instant coffee that we served them back then. Anyway, um, so that was fun. It was for about two years and um, and then it was in the early 1980s and I was still sort of in my early mid twenties and not really sure what I was up to. So I only did it for about two years. But it was, it was so much fun. And he was, he was a character for sure, but he was just sort of taking off into the next realm of, um, acceptability and then fame really. So it was great. And it's interesting to think about if he had been born, say 20 years later, you know, and if, if this had happened, that experience you're describing, if that had happened maybe 30 years later. Cuz I feel like lately there's been a lot more acceptance of this type of work that you're describing. Oh, yeah. And a lot more acceptance of just a broad variety of lives. No, it's really true. And I mean, also, sadly, he, you know, he died of AIDS and so you think about, you know, the wonderful treatments that are available now. Um, so all of that. Yeah. But he was, yeah, he was on the forefront of things for sure, and he always, he really did always wanna be famous. Um, that was, he was not shy about saying that. So he sort of wanted to fashion himself after Andy Warhol, um, is interesting. So I, you know, it was a great experience for me. But it was sort of like, then I moved to the Virgin Islands and lived my, my boyfriend on a boat for a couple years . And then I came back and I, um, worked at the Addison Gallery, um, in and Ever, which is a wonderful small museum of American art. And I cataloged their collection. And then I did a program at Sotheby's, and then I ended up getting up here, um, to work in the antiques business. And that was fraught with all sorts of things. And so I ended up opening my gallery here in 1989. Tell Me about your own photography. I'm not a photographer. Oh, Okay. No. So what, how did you get interested in this Field then? I was an art history major, and so then I just was really interested in the history of photography. Um, and when I did my thesis on Alfred Siletz, who was sort of the premier, you know, 20th century American photographer, um, I got my first job in a gallery in San Francisco, um, which was a photography gallery. And that was in the late 1970s. Um, and so, um, that was when it was just all taking off. Um, and so people like Graham Nash, you know, from Crosby Seals and Nash were, were collecting. And so these, all these fancy fun people would come in and buy things. And, um, so I got to know just, I mean, all sorts of people, it just surreptitiously. So that's what enabled me to, um, when I got back to Maine, all the people I'd known 10 years before had all of a sudden, you know, gotten their places and were having their own galleries. And so I was able to really get a lot of really good work, um, because of those connections. Um, so I mostly got things on consignment so I didn't have to a huge outlay, um, didn't make great margins, um, but I was able to get great stuff like Elliot Porter and Ansel Adams and that kind of stuff. So it was fun. I, I happen to know from kind of just being a fly on the wall over at the Portland Art Gallery that selling photography is very different than selling fine art, let's just say. It's just, it's a different market. It's a different kind of structure or it's, I mean, you're selling prints, you're not selling original work. I mean, it's original, but I mean, it's all gonna be a copy of something. Right? So tell me about that experience. Well, it's interesting because of it, people have gone through, I mean, now photographers are really trying to, um, integrate themselves into either doing more unique works or very limited editions. Um, and many photographers enjoy showing at galleries that have, have painting and sculpture and that sort of thing. But, um, yeah, it's, it's sort of an artificial thing, um, to be honest, I mean, um, people like Ansel Adams, um, and, and Todd, um, in the old days, um, Ansel Adams, most famous pictures were moon rise over He Hernandez. Um, and there are probably at least a thousand of those that exist. And so there's really no rhyme or reason to the market because those can sell from 50 to 150 or $200,000 per print. Um, it's be, so it's sort of a supply and demand in a way because it's such a popular image. But, um, but then when I got involved with Todd, we did a, we sort of doing, he, I had a lot of beautiful vintage work, which was either unique ie. So he was working large format, so eight by 10, negative five by seven negative. So contact print would be that size. Um, and those would be, they might be one or two or three images that he did over the years. But then when I started working with him and we printed some larger work, um, we started limiting the addition. Um, so it's, it's, um, it's interesting cuz it's, it's, it's just a way of, you know, assuring the collector that there's, there're not a thousand of 'em around, although people who collect it, it's, that's what I say, it's a contradiction, but in any event, um, it's a way to sort of limit the, um, and make sure that the value of the piece, you know, so we did, uh, additions of 10 and 15, that sort of thing, but we never printed them all. And so, um, I have the ability to do them posthumously up until the whatever number, you know, exists. But it's, it's a, it's a complicated market. Um, but you know, if the photographer printed it themselves and signed it themselves. And then there's also a thing between vintage and modern and, uh, in photography, people, um, tend to, collectors tend to go for, you know, really serious collectors go for vintage work, um, which is considered to be maybe closer to the artists conception, uh, at, you know, taken a picture, taken and printed at the same time it was taken, that kind of thing. So, Well I, I enjoy hearing about this. I, I, I think, um, you know, having talked to Nina Fuller and, and subsequently than, uh, buying one of her pieces and watching that whole process and it's, you know, there the large format as you say. I mean, it's very different than, oh, I'm just gonna send this off to shut Shutterfly and, you know, something's gonna come back and I'm gonna stick it on my desk at work. Yeah. And he understanding someone, I mean, Nino is fabulous. I've, I've known her for a long time, but, and someone like Todd, who was a completely different generation, he was born in 1905, um, and was taking pictures. He didn't really, he came to photography later in his career, actually. He was in his mid late thirties before he started, but he was working, as I mentioned, with um, an eight by 10 camera, or a five by seven camera. So any given day he was walking around town with first of all this very cumbersome thing and a tripod. And also probably only as maybe 10 pieces of film, um, maybe only five depending on how much money he had. So he had to really pick and choose time of day, location. He couldn't just go take a million pictures and then choose one. Do you know what I mean? And so it's a, it's a whole different, um, psyche, which is pretty cool. I think. I remember in reading in, I see a city, um, that one of the challenges that he had there was you either kind of decided that a car was gonna be in the shot or a car wasn't going to be in the shot. Right. And that kind of makes sense now that you're telling me if he's bringing a tripod around and setting it up Yeah. Um, that you kind of, that's a big decision. Yeah. And there's a lot of variables that you can't really control for, I would think, in that sort of Photography. Yeah. Well, and that's, and you're speaking of the, he's speaking about this, um, his panel, which is, uh, eighth Avenue, I mean sixth Avenue between 43rd and 44th. Um, taken in 1948. And he did it on a Sunday morning cuz he thought there'd be less traffic, which he was right about. And he marked off with chalk on the opposite side of the street, like the eight different pictures he wanted to take. And then he took, stood and took one picture and then stood and took another picture. But he had to wait, you know, um, and he, um, yeah, he got it. I mean, there are some cars that are parked, but he doesn't have any moving cars in it. So it's, yeah, luck, timing, smarts, Which, which is still a thing even in today's photography because I know having worked with, with people who are now even doing digital work is they're always paying attention to what's going on with the light, what's going on with the weather, you know? Oh, yeah. And so it's, it's I think a little, again, different from other types of visual art where there is at least perhaps you're working from a photograph or perhaps you're doing plain air, but there's a little bit more stasis that you're dealing with. Yeah, perhaps. Yeah. It's just interesting, I think. Yeah, absolutely. And Todd just fell in love with it. He, um, was working for Chrysler in the late thirties and he was member of the Chrysler Camera Club. Um, and they got, they somehow wrangled, um, Ansel Adams to come and give them a workshop. And it was a 10 day workshop. And up until that point he'd been a, you know, it was just an avocation at photography, but then after that it was just something he had to do. He was just smitten, bitten, you know, by the bug. And he writes in his journal, I have a journal of his 1300 pages long from 1946 to 1976, but it's just like he, any given month, he might have only, you know, literally $5 and he just, just wanted, he had to continue with just, so I think it's a passion as all artists, but it was certainly a passion for Todd. So In one of the books, um, there's a story about his lost work Yes. And about how you actually went and found his work. Yeah. That had been gone for a very long time. Yeah. And you were able to recover it. Yeah. So I, I'd like you to tell us about that. Oh, such an incredible story. So when I met Todd in, um, 1989, um, I had certainly heard of him and I said, why don't you have a gallery representation? And he said, well, I had a very difficult situation with a gallery in the, in the 1970s who, um, this fellow promised to buy my, basically my whole collection for a certain amount of money. And then he only paid me about a third of it, and then, um, sort of absconded with most of it. And so he, Todd just had a terrible taste in his mouth about dealing with photography. And he also grew up very simply. He was a Quaker. Um, he wasn't really practicing Quaker as an adult, but that was his background. And so he, you know, they lived very simply. Um, and, and well but simply, so, um, time went on and I kept on saying, Todd, don't you wanna go after these guys? You know? And he said, Nope, nope, nope. It just wasn't in his nature. So he died. And then I sort of inherited that reluctance. Um, I didn't ever want to, but then I had to finally the, um, contract to do the show at the museum of the city of New York in 2017. And I had seen stuff come up online, um, and very, you know, eBay and that sort of thing that were, um, not necessarily the best prints and selling for way under market, um, value. And I kind of knew where to look. I just didn't, didn't, I was just, anyway, but I thought, I've gotta figure out where this stuff is because all of a sudden Todd's name is gonna be raised up a little bit more and I don't want this stuff sort of hanging around out there. So I found this person, he was, um, lived in Berkeley. He had bought this stuff from the original fellow and he and two other guys. So this crazy consortium of these three guys in Berkeley bought most of the work. So the book work was originally sold in 76 and they bought it in 81. And, um, as weirdly enough, I had actually met this fellow when I worked for the gallery in San Francisco in the late 1970s. So off we go and go to his, um, bungalow in Berkeley. And it's, he's a bit of a hoarder, um, like quite a hoarder. And so he made me take off my shoes, but then I walked through these stacks of like stuff and he walks me up to a room, a bedroom where he had splayed out mostly the O'Keefe photographs and there were quite a number of them, and they were fantastic. I was like, wow, this is amazing, you know, blah, blah, blah. I said, is this it? He said, oh no, there's more. So off we go to Oakland, California, and, um, on the hills of Oakland. And, um, uh, met this other fellow. So these guys are now in their mid seventies, um, this is in the 2016. And they say, well, come downstairs. So this, in this basement there were five steamer trunks with padlocks on them, and thankfully a dry basement. Anyway, we opened them up and it was just like mind blowing cuz it was, um, they're probably 7,000, thousand items in there, negatives, prints, journals, ephemera, basically the sum total of Todd's life. And so I understand why he, um, never really wanted to talk about it. And so it took me two or three trips to actually go and sort of quantify the whole thing. And then I worked out, I wanted to, one, I talked to some lawyers about maybe suing these guys and they just said, you know, you catch more flies with honey than vinegar and, you know, it wouldn't, and Todd wouldn't have wanted me to do that anyway, so we worked out a deal where I was able to get the work back and cuz they, they, you know, they had known Todd and they wanted to do the right thing. They were just a little bit hapless. I said, what are you gonna do with all this? You know? And so I had inherited, so Todd it at a certain point had gotten some of this stuff back. And so I'd inherited what he had, which was also a fantastic group of things. And so this was, so anyway, it just was a crazy story. We got the five trunks across the country and back, and now we, you know, we've been obviously cataloging it all since. And, and so we made some incredible discoveries. Um, so from it, which is one of us, the Africa work. So, Yes. So I, I was really interested to read this because this was some of the Africa work, well, or maybe all of it, wasn't it commissioned By Yes, by the un Yeah. Yeah. So he was meant to go to Africa. He did go to Africa to photograph sort of emerging nations and technologies and that sort of thing. And so, um, I had known about the trip we had, we'd spoken about it, but I had no idea, I'd only ever seen maybe two or three black and white prints that he had. And so when we found the, in the trunks were all these negatives and their color, and thank God they were in good shape. And so first of all, color, which I mean, never saw any color work by Todd before this time and it's square format, which is different for him. So it was this whole crazy discovery. And then I, I brought the stuff home and I showed it, um, initially to a, a Bassier who is a good friend who's, um, a noted, um, Africanists and African art history teacher teaches at Bates. And so she, and I just thought it was extraordinary, but I wanted to get her take on it. And she said, oh my God, there's nothing like this in the lexicon because, um, unfortunately most many Africans during the time just didn't have the ability to shoot color. Um, and, um, while we ever knew, saw really from that time as sort of the National Geographic ethnographic pictures of people in villages and that sort of thing. And this body of work really shows people in an emerging, um, Africa that's, you know, got everything going on. And, um, and so it's like, it's not the National Geographic and it's not the safari pictures. It's like Africa happening in the late fifties. And interestingly, um, there was, um, it was just when colonial rule was sort of turning over. So for instance, there's one incredible picture from Togo, um, when they, um, declared their independence from France. So it's just a, it's a time in Africa that's really exciting. Um, so it's, anyway, it was just fabulous. So we were able to put together this group of people in, um, AME and then a woman named Aaron Hyde Nolan who had worked for me, um, who knew everything about Todd. Um, and they're actually good friends and they, together they collaborated on putting together the Africa book. So it's great. What Is it like to be working kind of posthumously on behalf of this great photographer? Well, it's very gratifying. Um, Todd and I were really good friends. Um, I was so lucky to have met them. They as wandered in my gallery in 1989, and they were in their eighties at the time. And they were um, you know, four foot, nothing holding hands, the cutest couple you ever saw. And it took about a year. But we would start going out to lunch and, um, they be really became the elders in my life. Um, they, my parents passed away around that same time. And so, um, even though they're old enough really to be my grandparents, um, we just formed a real bond. Um, so after a year or two, um, I finally said, well, can I start representing you? And they, he said, sure. Um, and so we did I think a three month or a six month sort of trial. And basically at that point, I didn't have the gallery anymore, but I was, um, selling through other galleries. So I had all these connections in like New York and LA and Santa Fe in Boston. And so the, those galleries would sell the work and then I would, um, you know, give the money to Todd. Basically I'd take a little bit of a commission. But, um, so it worked out and we really did well. Um, and you just became, you know, he became, they became a part of our family. And um, so when they were in their nineties, um, Chris was their doctor for a while. My husband, his first doctor was Dr. Thompson. Do you remember Dr. Phil Thompson? Oh, he was a gp. Anyway, so, so anyway, so, and then they would come for every holiday, blah, blah, blah, blah. So anyway, when they were in their nineties they said, um, we'd like for you to carry on. Um, and I said, okay. So, you know, quite frankly, um, so he died in 2000 and he was almost 95 and she died in 2008. She was 102. And since then, I mean, I, I have to say I've had major ups and downs with it, um, because it's was really hard for while to really get traction. So it was really wasn't until I got the, the trunks back and then also did the New York book that all of a sudden things started falling in place. So I'd had my moments of like, ah, what am I gonna do? But now I'm like on a, on a steamroller and I'm, so we've got all these projects planned and um, I just, I know that Todd and Lue are smiling and um, and I quite frankly can't think of anything else that I'd rather be doing, doing a or that I could be doing . So it's just one of those faithful things, you know. So really lucky When I think about Todd as a, as an individual, I mean, first of all, didn't he start out in finance? He's a crazy story. So he was born in Detroit in 1905. He, um, yes, I said in this Quaker family, he, um, when he was about 14, he asked some girl out to a tea dance without checking with somebody. And so his parents set him up to Canada to live with his grandfather, which is turned out was his grandfather was more lenient than his parents. So anyway, he lived, um, outside of Toronto for his high school and college years. During that time he got some mountaineering experience, he did some park service work, which figures into the story later. So in any event, he comes back, um, and he gets a job as a banker. Yeah. In the twenties, um, in Detroit. And he was like, so UNT Todd, like, cuz he was such a simple guy, but apparently he was making like a hundred thousand dollars back then, which gosh knows what that would be now. And he had two cars and tons of girlfriends and blah, blah blah. And then the crash came, um, in 1929 and he lost everything. And he got a job with Chrysler just to go deliver a car out west. And he, um, got to north of San Francisco and he bought a borough and he went up and panned for gold for two years for the beginning of the depression. Made some money anyway, but that's where this mountaineering thing came in. And he also had had, um, ancestors who had, um, come in the wagons across, um, from um, the east coast to the Midwest. So he was always interested in all that kind of stuff. He had his, he actually had his great-grandfather's compass. Um, so he did that. And then he um, was in, um, San Francisco doing odd jobs and he got back to Detroit in the mid thirties and got a job with Chrysler, but which was sort of a middle management job. I'm not really clear as to what he was up to doing that, but that's when he got into photography. And then, but then, you know, anyway, it's an amazing story, but I mean panning for gold, I think. And I think when he came back to, I think he rode the rails like as a hobo coming back to get back to Detroit. And he and Lucille didn't get together as a married couple until they were in their four Days, right? Yes, yes. So, and that's crazy thing because, um, they met in Paris. Um, so Todd was in New York right after the war for about two years, had great success there, got to know Alfred Seg glitz and O'Keefe and everybody then. Um, and um, but then he got a job, um, in 1948 with the Marshall Plan, um, and also standard Oil to go to Europe and photograph, um, standard oil was more sort of a propaganda thing. Like wow, how is oil good for your life kind of thing. And, but the Marshall Plan, he traveled, he was stationed in Paris, but he traveled to Belgium and Germany and Holland and um, you know, taking pictures to see how everybody was rebuilding. Um, but so he, but he was stationed in Paris and fell absolutely in love with Paris. He was absolutely in love with New York. He was absolutely in love with Paris. Um, and af the second year he was there, this, um, Lucille was with a group of people who somehow knew Todd and they all got together and they were in their early forties. They're, they're actually exactly a year apart. Um, and so they're I think 43 and 44 years old and it was just like, boom. I mean they had both like dated a ton of people and Todd especially. And sadly, I, I now have his real journal and I've seen, I've seen all the entries and I'm like, no, cuz he is sort of like a father and he is like, I don't wanna hear this. But anyway, um, but Lucille, so they always tell the story. They fell in love, blah blah, blah, blah. Well, I found out from the journal, Lucille would kill me for saying this, but, um, that she actually was married, um, and she was traveling with her husband when she met Todd. And she came home and got divorced and you know, they were married like three months later. So , I don't really know. But anyway, they had a wonderful marriage. They both, um, obviously didn't have children cause they were married late and left. But I think, uh, Lucille had an interesting situation. Laton as her mom left the family when she was young, sort of ran off with, um, somebody. And I think she, and then Todd also, his father did sort of the same thing left when he was about after, you know, he was about 15. So I think they both just whatever reason, decided they didn't wanna have children. And I mean, at that point they in those days probably couldn't have, but they just, they were living independent lives and loved what they were doing and had a fascinating life together. So, and a great marriage. So it was, it was really good. They were great. So They must have been together for half a century. Yeah, They were. So, and they taught me a lot, you know, it's interesting, you know, so as I always say, don't go to bed angry, you know, all that good stuff. So anyway, you know, they're just, they were like parents to me, so it was great. You and I of course share another connection and, and that is that your husband is a family doctor Yep. Now retired. Yep. But someone who actually taught me mm-hmm. at the medical center. And, um, I know that when you are married, and my husband will attest to this, when you are married to a doctor or someone in the profession, you're kind of married to the profession. You're, you're kind of, you become, this becomes kind of your life. Yeah. And particularly in family medicine. Yeah. Did That ever, I mean, were there ever kind of opportunities or challenges that occurred as you were trying to live this very different kind of life, doing the work in photography and curation and having A gallery? Um, no, it was, it was, I mean, I'm lucky enough to, um, basically work for myself and work my own hours. So I definitely had flexibility. Um, so it, it probably, it worked out. But I mean, when we first got together though, it was sort of like, oh my god, you know, he'd be on call and somebody would call and let the baby has 102 fever and da, I'd be like, awake, like waiting for the next call. How's that baby? You know, or, or like, you know, somebody's in labor and you know, they're four centimeters and I'd be like, making the coffee, you know, and he'd be like, no, just call me when she's like seven. I was like, are you kidding me, ? I was like, you gotta go now. So it was that sort of stuff of me just not really being conversant and, you know, but, um, it was, you know, always like on the other end of the phone, just I was listening, you know, intently and, um, always just a very, um, I don't know, family doctors are, are heroes and they're sort of like, um, sort of like the village priest in a way. I mean, I think Todd, I mean, um, excuse me, Chris. Um, and he got out really wanted the HMO's sort of coming in and saying, you have five minutes for this and two minutes for that. And he just was like, he was the guy who wanted to do the hour long physical. And um, so sadly that sort of went by the wayside and he was able to, um, he had, you know, other means and so he was able to retire. But everybody still stops me in the supermarket and says, why you? And we missed your husband. He was the greatest. And, um, but happily, um, we have two daughters and, um, my oldest daughter Lila, is um, has a little baby girl and she's, uh, she says a lot of wonderful work with like the museum and that kind of stuff. And then we have a daughter, Sage, who just graduated from, um, medical school and she's gonna be a family doctor, so she's doing, she's starting a residency now. So, um, yeah, it's exciting. Well, I'm, I'm so glad that you're, you're bringing up this relationship with, um, and Todd and your husband Chris. Um, and I think it's interesting to me that you, you also needed to build that really trusting relationship with Todd. So I, this idea that relationships are really important if you're gonna do things in which, um, trust and vulnerability and are those sorts of things are involved is so, so necessary to understand. Yeah, No, it's true. And it's just sort of, um, I don't know, it just when things, it just came easily to me with, with Todd, we just, we're pretty much in sync from the moment we met. Um, and so there was, there's sort of an, almost an, an innate understanding between us. Um, and so we both, you know, having had the experience that I had with the, the gallery in San Francisco and then with Maplethorp and seeing like all the glitzy stuff about the art world, and um, Todd and I both were like, Ugh, we hate that. You know, so we just, we just, you know, he said, you know, know if you like my work, great, buy it if you don't, fine. You know, it just was so, we just understood each other right away. And so it was really, the trust was, um, just forthcoming. I mean, it just happened very naturally, so very lucky. Betsy, how can people learn more about Todd Webb? Well, um, , our website is Todd Webb photographs, um, dot com and, uh, there's a lot of information on there actually. Um, and then you could email us and, uh, get on, you know, our mailing list and that sort of thing. Um, info@toddwebbphotographs.com. Um, and we actually, um, the Portland Museum of Art is hosting the Africa Show, um, in March, um, opening in the middle of March, um, of this, of 2023. Um, so yeah, if you're in town, we'll we'll be doing some events around that. So, Well, I encourage people who are interested in photography or history or culture or really anything to maybe get one of these books that I've had the chance to read. Maybe go to the Portland Museum of Art in March, or look up Betsy Evans Hunt. Um, because Todd Webb is really, um, a brilliant photographer and hearing his story, I think just cement in my mind how important it is that we pay attention to somebody even after, uh, as he's watching us from where, wherever he is, up in the sky somewhere. , um, I've been speaking with Betsy Evans Hunt and, um, I really appreciate the time that you've taken with me today. Yeah, Thanks so much. Been a pleasure.