Douglas H. Caves Sr. on the Artist's Search for Purpose

We appreciate your joining us today. I have with me in the studio artist, Doug capes. Thanks for coming in today. Happy to be here. Thanks for inviting me Melbourne place. Thank you. We are very, um, intrigued by the work that you do, Doug, and specifically this piece that you brought in today, because it, it actually kind of reminds me of, of main of the pastoral nature of Maine, the farming community. What's the name of this piece? Well, this is called the evening before, and what it refers to is the evening before the mowing. So that's why those, um, uh, um, uh, farm equipment pieces are, are sort of staged there. Um, yeah, the, the rural aspect of new England, it just grabs me, you know, and as we were talking earlier, I just have this affinity for the, um, natural space, the, the outdoors, you know, I, I kind of feel that, uh, um, it understands me and I understand it. And so I like being put into it. And so this is the general field, this image here, and this is one of my very favorite go-to places to paint. Uh, it's the general field is just below the, um, the, um, Groton school in Groton mass. And, uh, so that's the prep school just below it to the south of it is this is the town of air, but in between it is this general field. And, uh, when I first started painting this scene about 10 years ago, uh, and th this is, this is an old painting of mine. Um, but, uh, it was very, um, rustic, the, the houses were rustic. They needed paint there. They were empty and the bonds were empty. Um, not that they were still being used, but they w they were empty. And, um, and I just started painting and I was just so fascinated because the light would come up from, well, the east would be like, we would be east of this. And then after the west is the Mount white choosen, which was the tallest peak in the area, you know, small is, I think it's like, I think it's 3000 feet now. Um, and, uh, the, um, the, the light just moved across there was so good. And I was just so fascinated by the way, light will land on, on these old clapboard structures and, and, you know, and the foliage, you know? Um, so I, um, that's what it's about. Yeah. I don't want to ramble, but, you know, I, I, I tried to get into the gush of the color of the, you know, the, um, like transposing, let you know about pain, uh, not transposing, but, um, uh, I want to say, uh, reconciling what you know about paint and application paint, and then what nature is doing, or I hate using that word nature, but, uh, you know, what, what your environment is, is doing and how it's reacting that vibration between the two. So I'm always trying to understand what that vibration is, and that's what I'm trying to capture, if that makes any kind of sense at all. You know, sometimes it works and sometimes it, you know, it's very elusive, but, you know, yeah. I think I just wanted to paint the light in the window there, but that was it, you know, it's actually a bit simple. Yeah. I mean, that, that is really interesting to look at that, that middle, that middle structure and that light, and to think that you could actually kind of create something around it. Yeah, well, yeah, the, um, the surrounding is, um, uh, it's the environment that you're in, you know, I like, uh, architectural structures used to live down the Cape and, um, I would, um, we in fact have been in Provincetown for a summer and I loved walking in the side streets down there because of these all old clabbered, um, you know, houses that were, uh, um, the original house and then the add on, and then the add on, and then the add on, and then the shapes that they made as they tumbled down the street and, and the foliage would come into it. And I was just so, you know, I just so connected with that. It, it resonated with me and I, um, always wanted to, you know, figure out how to, um, express that, you know? Um, so I'm still trying to figure that out, you know, so, but when I, yeah, I'm hearing you speak, you're your words are, you know, gushing and tumbling, and there's so much activity to your words and so much of a sense of energy that comes out of the external environment and your desire to, to, to use the tools that you have to put it onto a two dimensional surface. I mean, you're, you're trying to bring something that's multi-dimensional and translate it so that we have that to participate in, I guess, but that's such an interesting challenge. Yeah. Yeah. Wow. That's really well said. I can, you should be my publicist. That's great. That's kind of how I feel about it. That's um, so hard to put into words, but yes. You know, uh, I, I do, um, instructional courses, uh, sometimes online sometimes in person. And so one of the things that I talk about, one of the themes I talk about that making a painting is sort of like conducting a symphony orchestra, and I have no musical ability whatsoever, but I love to listen to music and I love, love the classical music, you know? Um, and so because of the beginning painters, which is mostly Hawaiian instructors, beginning painters, you know, uh, you want to get in there and you want to finish the painting up in two minutes, you know? And so I always talk about how it's bringing everything up, bringing the Piccolo's, bringing the, the strings, bringing the brass, bringing it all along, and then hearing the sounds, finding the balance, stop with the vague and then move to the specific, you know, so oftentimes, uh, uh, for me, that's a process of discovery. Uh, I don't know where the paintings will finally end up. I just sort of have, like when I started, you know, most of my work is done in the studio. I do work plan year whenever I can, but often I can't. I just be, and so I, over the years is most of my work is done in the studio. So it gives me this sort of, um, you know, um, um, on envelope, uh, what's the word I'm thinking of bubble that I can work in, you know, where I can, uh, shut out that, uh, the external, um, um, you know, the, the delivery man, the passer-by wants to tell you about their uncle who painted it all and all that stuff. And, and, and, and so, um, it helps me to sort of hear the colors if that makes any sense. So, so, uh, so I, I liken it to, to that, to that conducting because you have to bring up all the, you know, all the issues. So, you know, the color, um, uh, the, the texture, um, the weight, uh, mine, uh, you know, just the basics, the elements of, of, of painting and, um, uh, so, and I can just keep every time I say, and that means, like, what's the next thing I want to say, but I don't always want to say, so I don't say so much, you know, um, lately, uh, with the last few years it's been, I really have been more, um, introverted, uh, uh, more reclusive. And my wife sorta has to drag me out of the house a little bit. Not that I'm, you know, I'm not crazy about it, but, um, um, I'm just reluctant to, um, to venture out into society so much these days. So one of the things that is a result of that is where for the last seven, 10 years, most of my paintings have been landscapes are still lives where there's no body in them and, and the streets around the, and the fields around empty. Now I'm bringing people into the picture. So I had this desire to understand, you know, how that works with painting. And it goes, it takes me back to my teenage years when one of my first heroes was a Rembrandt, you know, and I thought, gee, boy, if I could just, you know, I could just paint like Rembrandt, you know, that I, you know, how does you know that there's layer upon layer upon layer upon layer that symphony that building up, that, you know, that symphony of, uh, of color, I thought, uh, that would be good, but then, you know, uh, you know, other things come along and then, you know, I lose focus and, uh, um, um, in, um, uh, art school, uh, you know, I went to a, um, a school where my roommates and I, we were, uh, all in the art program. And, uh, we, um, we, um, were dedicated, you know, almost like cultist the, you know, we would, uh, go into class and hear the lecture on painting, and then we'd rush home and go to the studio and just, you know, we're all day and work all night until you, you know, until you ran out of steam waiting for that next fix. We had a very inspiring painting teacher and a very wise, uh, calm understanding, uh, helpful, uh, drawing teacher and sculpture teacher. And, uh, so those, uh, I dunno why I went there, but I just, uh, I think of him all the time, you know, the, the, the lessons and the often they come back and like, what did he mean by, uh, you know, the painting teacher used to always say that you have to come down from up there to do what you got, you gotta step down. And so I was always, what does he mean by that? You know, what does that mean? I think I know what that means, you know? Yeah. You're, you're sort of like an hour baited mental state or whatever, but to actually make the painting. So you got to step into the dirt and you got to get your hands dirty and paint on your, on your shoes and everything. So it's really good at that, getting paint on my shoes. Um, uh, but, um, um, lately I've been thinking about, um, you know, Ladd mayor Nabokov his book, the gift. So then I'm thinking like that. I think that's what he's talking about. And, and so it's that, um, passing through, you know, you're passing through your existence, your life, your essence, who, who you are, you're, you're living that out in this world. And, you know, we really don't know anything, you know, w w w where we're just like, you know, I mean, we're just guessing all the time and we're, but we're going on intuition, we're going on? Uh, you know, the lessons that we learned from pain or from wise, you know, counsel and I, um, so that's kind of where my head's been at lately. It's like, well, I'm getting near the end now, you know, this journey has been pretty interesting getting near the end. What do I, what am I last, what am I last statements that, that I want to lead before? I'm, you know, off, out of here, you know, before I check out, you know? So I think about that a lot, I think about that, uh, phases of, of life, you know? So if you're talking about your legacy, which it sounds like that's what you're describing. Yeah. I guess that's part, that's an aspect of it. Yeah. You have to have legacy to read one, I suppose, But that's what I was going to ask. So what, what is it that you, if somebody is coming along behind you and seeing the work that you've created, what do you hope that legacy will be? Gosh, that's a good question. I never thought of that. No one's ever asked me before. Um, I, um, well, when I do instruction, um, I try to make two things really clear. The first one is, as I say, this is how I do it. It's not how you're gonna do it, but, but this is how I approach it. And hopefully what you'll pick up is process and mental, you know, the mental process to get from me to be, but also the, the, um, your process, you know, you, the stick, the, the perseverance that you need. And then the second thing is, is when people say, oh, is this what you want me to do? And I go like, no, I don't want you to do anything except for what comes out of you. So that's, if anything, that's what I, I would want other painters who, um, uh, come after me, all painters, you know, that, that are serious about painting is, is, is, you know, that traveling that path where you discover what's coming out of you, you know, what, what your, what your message is I, and I, you know, I, I, I don't know, I'm still looking for it, you know? And, um, sometimes, uh, you know, I think like art painting, it's like magic. It's like magic, like computers are magic, you know, um, for awhile, I was really into relational databases, Microsoft access, and just building a, making them do things. And, and the way you would connect disparate entities with this, with a common entity. And I thought, Jesus just fascinating how you can make all these things happen and you can make, uh, you know, and you can pull up information. And then, so I think painting is sort of like that too, where, you know, you're, you're trying to pull together, um, different entities finding what unites them, like, what their relationship is, you know, what's the relationship of the color and the house to the background, to the mountain. And how does that work in Ireland? And does it set up any kind of particular vibration or harmony? One of the, uh, favorite, uh, lessons I had in painting class was, uh, we used to have to get, uh, um, uh, packs of color aid, which is this really nice paper, but it's like about a two or 3000 different colors. So, you know, you just, you, you weren't bumpy. If you take green, you know, you'll have 50 or a hundred shades of green, so we'd have problems like, uh, and I forget who actually, uh, made this, um, for these first lessons, but our painting teacher gave them to us and I've forgotten. I'm terrible with remembering them, but you would do things like you would have lessons where you would like say, uh, you'd have one square here, one square here at different colors. And by, depending on what you'd put on the back of them, they'd look the same. Or you take two colors out of the same, putting something behind, you know, different colors behind them to make them look different. And so that relational thing, and, and so the, and then the romantic side of making color saying, that's one of the things that always inspires me. You know, like when I started painting as a person, I have to look at it and say, can I find the tune? Can I find the melody in this? You know, you know, sometimes, you know, sometimes it doesn't happen, but then sometimes it's by surprise. Oh, you know, you find that right. You know, that right combination. So I know some paint is, we'll have an idea of what they're going to paint, and then they just paint it and then that's it. And then they just throw it away. But I, my approach is more like, well, I'm going to have a relationship with this painting with this canvas now for the next, uh, lately it's more like a month or two months or three months, you know? And, um, and, and I'm going to grow a little bit from it. And hopefully I'll leave this object behind, which is, has some things that I want to look at in the future. And hopefully other people will look at too. Yeah. Well, it seems like I'm just talking Well, I'm, I'm, as you're talking, I'm thinking about, um, we have a very, in, especially in our culture, we're very individual focused, but that's not actually reality. None of us is standing out there in a field by the, by ourselves. We're all only something in relationship to all of the elements around us. So it's kind of systems theory. It's this idea that it's the ecosystem. So I think what you're describing is not only how do all these things relate, but how do you optimize these things with, with relationship to painting? How do you optimize the colors? How do you optimize the sheeps and the light and how do you, as you said, make things sing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right. It's yeah. It's, it's the challenge of, uh, seeing if you can do it, you know, I like to, I'd like to do paint paintings that I don't know how to do. Does that make sense? You know, I, I, I don't know if I'm going to be able to do this or not. And that's part of the kick for me is to see if I can do it. That's interesting too, because some people, um, some people really want to drill down, they want simplicity. They want to know that they're going to be able to get from point a to point B. They're not motivated by that uncertainty that you're describing, but for you, the uncertainty is a driving force. Yeah. That's the, it's the discovery that, that, uh, is the reward. So think of it in terms of, I think, I think my days are in terms of, uh, exploration, discovery, and invention. So try to sign out of each day without exploration, you know, get a cup of coffee and go sit outside and, you know, just look at things for awhile to sit and just practice looking, you know, and then it's like this, you know, you discover, you know, usually it doesn't take long, but you know, something clicks, you know, with that process of looking. And, uh, so then I go into the studio then I'm like, I'm already sort of like in second gear. And then the discovery is this getting in there? You know, I just, I love the, uh, the physical aspect of painting. I've always, always have loved it. Uh, I love, um, my, my being, but my who I am, but like, um, I am, I'm comfortable with fluids that if that makes sense, like pouring cement, making things. And I just seem to know how I know how to handle the viscosity of fluids, you know? Um, uh, so you get an affinity for your, your, your materials, I guess, is what I'm saying. And so, uh, I, I like working with hard things too, like lumber, you know, I'm a bit of a carpenter and, uh, you know, last summer I, um, one of the things that, um, I, uh, want to do when I finally left my day job, uh, was, uh, to rebuild, uh, this, uh, garage there's separate garages in my home, which is over a hundred years old. And it had started riding out in the last 10 years or so. So I did it, you know, I did it all by myself and, uh, I, um, and that was part of the, the thing to do it, my, you know, not to hire somebody, but to do it. And, um, and I was able to do it, you know, now, and then why, and do it again. But it's, you know, um, uh, it's like something I had to do. So I had to cross that bridge, cross that Rubicon get that done. Probably I felt bad because for the last, uh, 15 years I had neglected the roof. And so it, it, it had just, and the tree fell on it, you know? And, uh, and so, uh, I, um, felt, you know, that that practical need to, to repair it, but it was also this sort of art thing where like, well, no, the process of designing it, uh, getting the rafters up, how do I get those up by myself? You know, stuff like that. Uh, I always find it amazing what humans can do when they have to do it. And so I keep hoping that I keep hoping that eventually as a culture and as a, now as a, as a race, you know, the human race that we'll, we'll kind of figure out, oh, there's some things that we have to pay attention to. And, and, and, you know, maybe we should stop putting our mind to it instead of, you know, um, uh, instead of building, instead of, well, why not focus, broaden our horizons, that kind of thing, you know, your day. I was well for throughout all my years, I had always worked here when I took a summer off from school. I, uh, started with a friend of mine painting houses. And after, you know, a couple of houses of societies, I'm pretty good at this, you know, I can make some money. And so I worked that kind of stuff, uh, all through, uh, my mid twenties or so. And, um, you know, I, I was one of those guys that had a truck know and, and a painting crew and I paint houses. Uh, but while I was doing that, did a lot of new construction and I, uh, observed all of the, um, uh, bones going up. So I taught myself how to be a carpenter and the Mason and the tile guy, I'm a plumber and electrician, you know, so now I know just enough to be really, really dangerous. Uh, but, uh, so I, um, so I ended up being in facilities management, you know, um, started out in, uh, in, uh, in Western mass as a, um, uh, they hired me on as a painting contractor to paint some of the, uh, their laboratories and whatnot. And, uh, and then they liked me and I liked them and they said, well, why don't you just work for us? You know? And it was at the end of that building boom in the eighties and things were, you know, the, the building boom was coming to a close, I yeah. Could use a change. So I did that. And then they paid for my, uh, to finish up my bachelor's, uh, and, um, I went from, but I ended up being in, you know, in the, in those, uh, I try to say it in a pause. I ended up being a supervisor. And then later on I moved, I moved around and worked in Boston for awhile, but becoming a facilities manager, which is making sure that all the lights are on and the toilets are flushing, you know, people are comfortable and, um, you know, um, so managing the trades, you know, and, um, so did that, did that for quite a while. And then, then there was a pair of, I just wasn't painting at all because I was just, I was so, um, into the facilities management thing and I was taking courses in that as well. And, um, so it, it, I find that I, I, um, I get lost in my challenges and, and maybe I get too, um, um, um, too buried into them, but, uh, and I always thought, well, you know, I'll, I've always had paintings, a couple of paintings a year anyways, you know, um, after school. And so I started to think about maybe 15 years ago that, well, I'm getting older and I'm not painting. I need to paint. And so I just did it, you know, just get the paints up. And then I, um, I, um, I just started devoting every evening. So, uh, I had two jobs, you know, and, uh, one was, you know, um, being, being the daycare for facilities and then, um, uh, come home and paint into the evening. So I thought of it as my, um, uh, apprenticeship, uh, uh, and so that was that, that, that was, um, um, very productive, very productive, but it was costly to, you know, um, I didn't sleep much and whatnot. And so now I'm happy just to be painting, you know, and, um, um, I forgot where I was going with that, but you know, What your day job was, and then what your evening job was now, The job was managing people and, and that, you know, that has its, um, interesting aspects to it. Um, But it's fascinating to hear you talk because you have a very, um, significant interest in the abstract and translating the abstract into the physical. And yet somehow you ended up in a very physical, um, world for your day job, but then the people aspect on top of that, which is probably somewhere between abstract and physical, I would say, But Yeah, exactly. So you're, it seems like for you, you've always, somehow kind of kept yourself up in the clouds, somewhat allowing your brain to make connections, but then also, Uh, But also the grounded-ness also the looking up at the roof and saying, oh, I think I need to fix that. So that's an interesting thing for people to be for someone to like you to be so abstract, but also meeting so much to be grounded. Yeah. Yeah. I, I, I, I, I, I agree with that assessment, uh, uh, I was told that once before, um, I was working in a shoe factory, one of the many jobs I had, uh, in my late teens. Um, and I went from being this guy who was doing a back, was back backpack mold machine. So I take, uh, an upper slip, a piece of plastic in the heel, put the heel and this machine, poor liver, and it would form this back heel and just did that eight hours a day, you know, and then I got a job as a, as a postural manager and it's like, oh, so this is completely different only because I volunteered time to do some inventories, stuff like that. And then, so, yeah, so I had had this interest in how things are organized, how things relate to one another and, and how they pray, how they get prioritized and how we prioritize as humans. Cause that's also constructed. And then, uh, but, um, and then they brought in this, um, guy from Maine who was, um, a designer pattern maker, not well designer pattern maker. And they were teaching me how to do that. And that was really interesting. Uh, we would design shoes and he was into signing these, um, what we, we made boots, but he was into designing like women's fancy shoes. So, you know, with straps and no tolls and all that stuff. So we were doing different things like that. And I had a great experience learning all this, but the guy had halitosis and I had to sit this close to him. It was horrible. It's just really horrible. And, um, I was still pretty young. I don't know if I was maybe early twenties or whatever, but I, um, probably my teens, anyhow, I just left, I just left. I said, I'm going back to school. And that's what I did. I got a job being a waiter and I went to school and, you know, and then, so the owner of the factory, he saw me at the place where I was waiter. And he said, well, you know, he just, he said that, he said, he goes in, you had an interesting combination of, of pragmatism and, uh, and you know, vision or whatever, whatever word you, I liked the word vision. So I'd throw that in there. I thought that's interesting, you know? Uh, I think, um, so yeah, so yeah, yeah, it's, it, it creates a dynamism. It creates a stress in me, you know, every day does that stress. And, and, and I think, um, that's important. It's part of how I get things done because without it, then, you know, what am I doing? You know, just sitting there reading a, a John Grisham novel or something, you know? But, uh, um, so, you know, you think, I think about all of the influences, my grandfather was a painter and my father was, was not, he was an engineer and, uh, uh, my father was, you know, just, you're not going to be an artist, you know, that's not going to happen, you know, and I'm one of four boys, you know, and I was the next to the youngest. So I had a really, um, I had to think about that, you know, and I thought about that for many, many years, many decades. And so I think one of the premises I had was, well, if you put the paints away and you put the canvas away and you can do that and live with yourself and be comfortable, then you're not, you're not really a painter. So I tried it and the paints came back, I just had the Diller, you know, so I thought, okay, well then, you know, all right, I'm gonna be a painter, you know? And so now I'm going to really develop. And then this is, like I said, about 15 years ago. And I said, well, okay. I, I w I know I'm not faking it. I am not doing it because of the glamour because of the money. Um, you know, I'm doing it because, um, I need to, or I want, I want to anyways, you know, so that's, that's the, um, you know, that's, that's the, uh, the play, I think, uh, I always, for the, for years, I just didn't understand, um, what was the point of making the art? You know, it's like Steve Martin's line. I felt like I had just enough philosophy to screw me up for about 20 years, you know, like, like, is it, is it, so, is it just a selfish kind of, um, pursuit because you really have to, you've got to push everybody out, you know, when you're, when you're working and, um, and it's lonely in the studio, you know, you don't, you know, it's ours, so will you display yourself? So, you know, um, you gotta want to do all that, you know, but like, why what's the point, you know, does art make a difference? You know, does making, does making art make a difference, do poems, the poems really affect anybody, you know, does a good novel really, you know, and, and so, and I kind of said, well, yeah, it does kinda need that stuff, you know, but I had such a hard time just getting over the training that was in my head that you just, you're not going to do that. You know? So my cause my father and my grandfather had, you know, had, um, a, you know, like any, you know, any, I suppose parents had, you know, they, they, they had difficulties with the, although they reconciled the toy, the gun, but, um, so my father was very much opposed to that. So you contained those within yourself, your, your, you embodied your father and his father, and for years, your whole life, it sounds like those, those like tension the tension within you. I mean, that's such a fascinating thing to know about yourself and there's a poetic justice because now you're living back in the house that you grew up in. So not only have you, you claimed yourself, but you went back and you claimed yourself within your own childhood, I'm going to have to pay for these Well, That's, that's cool. I like that. I mean, those are the themes I think about like, you know, that recycling are returning concepts, theories, uh, uh, ideas, just always returning on like, you know, when I was a kid, I was, I was always a great mimic, you know, not as great as my nephew TRO, but who can mimic anybody in any language and you just amazing, but I was pretty good at mimicking, uh, fess. Um, what's his name? The guy who played Daniel Boone when I was in TV as a kid fess Parker. Yeah, I would, um, I would, uh, feel like a, a persona and sort of just sort of like take it on, uh, you know, eight years old, whatever. And we lived in the country, you know, there was woods and farmlands around. So we're always as kids, you know, we'd get pushed out the door in the morning and come back when the light streetlights come on. And, and so, uh, I had this vivid imagination about, uh, being a first time. I thought I was David Crockett, cause obviously we had the same initials. So I must have been the reincarnation of David Crockett, which meant I probably had a pretty bad end coming on my way, you know, but I was convinced, you know, and then I went through a civil war period where I was just fascinated by the civil war. And, um, and, and so I had a little civil war. I'll, you know, uniform, I don't know what I am. I'm eight years old, maybe Saudi or plastic Sullivan. I'd be out there having battles all day long. And, um, you know, so those were, uh, and there, when I was growing up there weren't, um, children in my neighbor, we were, it was pretty rural. And so the, the, I, there was a, um, um, a boy younger than me, uh, next door and a sister who was in his oldest sister was age. And so he ended up playing with the system most the, so I ended up play by myself being forced to use of imagination or whatever. So when I, um, yeah, that's funny. I just, uh, you know, uh, uh, the imagination about, uh, and the, the, so the reason I brought all the mimicking up was because it's another way of getting into, like, understanding something is by taking it on, you know, I suppose actors do that, you know, um, oh, it's a way of understanding the world or are, you know, processing it. And then the challenge of course, is when do you leave off the mimicking and get back to that thing that you were describing before, when you were talking about teaching, where do you leave off? What is important to embody and embrace and understand to come to your own place? Nancy? And I would just take a ride out in the Hills, um, when we would, uh, have that question thrown at us. Um, I, yeah, I don't know. Was that Ronald Reagan? Yeah, I don't do it anymore Because a lot of people probably don't know what he sounds like. I've lost my gift to be a good mimic, but I used to be able to do it pretty good. Um, but, um, I, um, you know what, like Robin Williams, Jonathan Winters, they were some of my heroes when I screw up, you still have to watch Jonathan with this on Johnny Carson. They'd sneak into the, my brother was a way my oldest brother, so I sneak it in his bedroom at night and turn the TV on and watch Jonathan Winters. Uh, I mean, watch Johnny Carson and Jonathan went to, wow, he's so different from everybody else. He's just, you know, it's stream of consciousness, he's out there. He's just pulling from here, he's pulling from there and he's making it work somehow he's making, he's making you connect with those unexpected relationships and nothing. That's pretty interesting. And then Robin Williams was pretty wild at that. So I, I, um, I, I find that I used to find that