Dr. Louis Nadelson: Always More to Learn

It is my great pleasure to speak with another doctor, Dr. Louis Nadelson, who is joining us from the great state of Arkansas. Thank you for joining us today. Well, thank you. It's a pleasure for being here. I really appreciate the invitation and look forward to our conversation. Yes. So you are I have to say this right up front. You are the chair of my dissertation committee for the doctorate that I've been working on. Also, a professor in several of the classes that I've taken in the doctorate through University of Arkansas. So this is a slightly different conversation we're having, but I wanted people to understand that context that you and I have worked together for about two years-ish really at this point. but little did I know that behind all of your academic achievements, and you are a prodigious writer and publisher of academic pieces, you also are a creative to a pretty significant magnitude. It's amazing. Thank you. I, you know, it, it's I, I, I have lots of interests and you know, I like to explore and create is something I really, really enjoy doing. And so finding outlets for doing that is something that it fulfills me deeply. So there's two areas that I wanna make sure we talk about, and one of them is your music, and one of them are the creations that you bring to life out of, essentially found objects. And since this is, this is a show about creativity, and we're gonna talk about art, let's talk about, let's talk about that first. you started bringing things into our, you and I will have weekly conversations about mostly dissertation stuff. And you started showing me things when you heard that I had an affiliation with the art gallery. Like, look at this table that I made out of a wagon wheel , you know, you started showing me these things. I was like, wait, who is this person? This is such a different person than the person that, you know, was teaching the class of leadership that I took. So how did you first get into making things out of farm implements and other found objects? I've always admired art that I haven't really engaged in it. I've always liked to build things and make things. And so I've, I've built houses. I've built two houses from the ground up. I've remodeled, you know, 15 houses getting several of those down to the studs, moving walls, and, you know, pouring new concrete and so forth. And so, you know, that's, that's a creative process as well for building things. But actually my wife who's also a doctor, Dr. Sandra Nason she took an artistic welding class about 25 years ago. And, you know, I just thought she's dabbling in it. And she came home and said like, Hey, I think we need to get a welder because I'm really liking this. And it's like, okay. And then I watched her weld for a moment, and it's just like, oh, teach me. I, I've, I instantly gravitated toward that. And so, you know, teach me this. And so she taught me, and, you know, the next semester, you know, these are personal enrichment classes, you know, these kind of continued education classes. I took the class with her and I gained a lot of skills. And at the same time, we were out driving around Washington State, and we came across a sculpture garden made of found objects as well, which we've been dabbling in. And this sculpture garden was remarkable. And so we went to this, you know, walked around this sculpture garden about five acres with these remarkable big sculptures, and asked, you know, started wandering around and saw this guy welding there. And I said, Hey, we're, we're looking for the owner of this. We'd like to talk to him. It's like, okay, what, what do you want to say? And it's like, well, are you the owner? He is like, yeah. And he said, I said, are you also the artist? And he's like, yeah, his name's Dan Lennert. And Dan's been nationally, internationally recognized for his art. And we have to this day are close friends and we've built a, a relationship. And so we would go and hang out with him when we were living in Washington State in his studio, and spend two, three days just creating, you know, he's working on his work and, you know, I'm working on mine, and we talk to each other and give each other ideas. And, you know, he's got this big scrap yard and we go out and find things. And as we're finding him, it's like getting new ideas. And, and so that was kind of my early experience with that. And since then, I've just really fell in love with it. And and the creativity. another inspiration that I took was when we lived in Nevada in Las Vegas, there's a lot of petroglyphs and those rock art that's around that, that area. And so I got really inspired by Southwest, you know, particularly indigenous art. and, you know, I've made multiple co capellis and other kinds of kind of what I would consider modeling after that rock art. And so, you know, one of the pieces that I sent to you you know, it's kind of a, a piece that's on a mounted on a, it's actually mounted on an old cellar door, is what that is. and that piece, and that it was modeled after that same kind of form and idea from that rock art. And so that's been a real inspiration. But I taken also, I've, I've always been you know, I grew up in the Church of Nature, is what I say. When everybody else was going to church on Sundays, we were going to hiking and in the mountains and, you know, wherever else out in the prairie or wherever else. I grew up in Denver area and in Colorado. And so spent an awful lot of time outside, deep, deep respect for nature and deep, you know, really passionate about that. So I take a lot of inspiration from that as well. And so you'll see that in some of my art as well. You know, I, I birds and fish and other kinds of critters that I have, I really tried to model and, and tried to create that form and yet try to be whimsical about some of it as well, you know, don't take it too serious and don't try to make it authentic, but try to provide that form, but also that kind of artistic expression. And so you know, one of the pictures I sent to you and I, it was it was a little subtle, but it was a bird that's on a rock. And we were in central Utah in price Utah, and there was a rock shop there and went in, and here was this kind of slab of, of rock with bird prints in it, and they're fossilized bird prints. And so it's like, you know, I brought that, I, I, I thought that was so cool, and I brought it home. And I had that bird, and it's like that bird's feet looked almost like the bird feet that are on that rock. And so, you know, I put 'em together there for that. But once again, taking that inspiration from nature and getting some ideas from that as well. So I'm assuming that this early interest in nature at least had some influence on your decision as an undergraduate to focus on science? Absolutely. And you know, I, I had a, my first kind of regular job, you know, mowing lawns and doing those other kinds of things as kids. but the first one was I actually was working in a large veterinary animal practice. And when I say large, not large animals, a a large practice, there were seven veterinarians and 120 cages in this building and, you know, a couple operating rooms and, you know x-ray room and, you know, seven or eight exam rooms. I mean, it was a, a big practice. And so I really got interested in the medicine part of, you know, working with animals as well. And so you know, I, I thought, oh, I want to become a veterinarian. but you know, I, I worked there for seven years and it's like, by the time it was time to apply for veterinary school, it's like, I don't know if I want to continue doing this because, you know, there's so many other interests that I had. and so but in the meantime, I had taken such a wide variety of classes from microbiology, herpetology you know, developmental biology and so forth, and all of those kept feeding together to build this bigger and bigger picture of understanding nature, you know, the botany and, and ethno botany and to really understand and, and delve deeper into nature really influenced my desire to, to become a teacher. And that I taught biology for several years at the high school level as well as physics and chemistry and so forth. You know, just kind of some of those natural sciences. And so, yeah, that definitely influenced me, was my appreciation for nature. And not just animals, but, but you know, the physical world as well. And then as you're moving through, you do focus on quite a bit of educational work, and you ended up, it looks like you actually went for one doctorate, completed the coursework, and then switched to a different doctorate. Apparently. I, I, I would assume you'd have to go through all the coursework for that, plus your dis dissertation at the University of Nevada Las Vegas and in educational psychology. And your dissertation was pre-service teachers understanding of evolution, nature of science, and situations of chance, which I just, again, find so fascinating. Like the, there's so many different kind of threads that you've kind of woven together to create not only your current creative artistic life, but also your current academic life. And once again, that, that kind is reflective of my interests. And, you know, , I had somebody, I was telling him, you know, the many different places I've worked and my different degrees and so forth, they were kind of talking to me about some of that. And he says, so you moved a lot and you've gone to many places and so forth. And he said, so you just can't keep a job, right? , which was kind of, kind of funny, but it's, it's not that I get bored, it's other opportunities come up and it's like, oh, I wonder if, and so I think, you know, that, you know, that's, that recent Fred Roger book about Fred Rogers is you know, when you, when you wonder, you're learning. And so I fully embrace that idea when I wonder, I've learned. And so by, you know, trying all these different things and exploring all these different ideas, ideas, I've, I've grown so much you know, mentally, emotionally you know, from my career as well, a little bit, you know, definitely in that. But I think that more of it's been much more personal than professional in the motivation for exploring all these different areas. Well, I, I love that. And I remember in a couple of the courses that I took with you early on, you know, there was this running theme of not yet, we're not there yet. You know, it's always a growth mindset. It's always, you know, what, what are we learning here? which I, I think really is a very specific, and for me, a very relatable approach to just life in general. Like, you, you know, you're never gonna learn all the stuff. So keep kind of, as you're going along, just being open to what's in front of you and, and what can you bring into your existence that creates maybe intellectual curiosity, maybe some level of happiness. but I think what I've noticed in some people, in academics, not all, I know that there's a lot of different ways to approach AC academia is that some people feel more comfortable, like getting more and more narrowed in focus so that they're kind of at the pinnacle and they spend many, many years studying exactly one thing forever. And I've been somewhat jealous of that, because that's, somehow, that seems a, a little bit less challenging than all the stuff, all the squirrels that I keep wanting to, you know, chase into the trees. and at the same time, it's so different than the way that I approach things. Yeah. And, and I'm, I'm with you on the squirrels, , you know, that there's, I think that there's, the, the two extremes on that is the field view, you know, an inch deep, you know, a mile wide or the, the post hole view of a mile deep and an inch wide. and those are the two kind of extremes with that. And I definitely lead to that field view of, I wanna know a little bit, you know, and I, because I can't know it all, and I could be really, really, you know, gain real, real deep knowledge of something, but it's at the cost of learning some other things there that I really want to explore. And so for me, you know, with that growth mindset of not yet, I can continue to learn, and that may continue to develop deeper skills and, and deeper knowledge of some areas, but at the same time, I want to be exploring all these other areas that come up as well. And so, you know, the one, as long as you're talking about my CD and professional and so forth, if you look, I've published with over 200 people, which, you know, is, is unusual, but I enjoy, you know, people come with come like, you came to me with these ideas, and it's just like, sure. Because I know I'll learn from that process with it. And it's interesting to me. Now, some people have come to me with ideas and it's just like, you know, I, I just didn't resonate with me. which is, it's been those, those I can count on probably one hand, , you know, it's, it's not a, it's not a it's, it's a rare event. but you know, the opportunity and then working with different people, of course, I learned from them as well. You know, I've learned a lot working with you as well, you know, just some different ideas and, and you know, a little bit more about medicine and, and so forth as well, but other ideas as well that you've brought and really got me thinking about change and leading through change and so forth in ways that I hadn't really contemplated before. And so we've explored a lot of different areas together, and I don't know if I would've come up with that myself, but when other people bring the ideas to me, it's like, of course I'll jump in and do that, because I wanna learn too. And I do love that idea of learning and education in that it's sort of mutually beneficial, and that there, it's an iterative process. And I, you know, I took a different course with a different professor, and there was a lot of conversation around kind of ways that education maybe doesn't work so well, and the sort of sage on the stage where I'm going to bring knowledge into a situation, and you are going to get the knowledge from me, which I have to say in, at least in my early medical education, there was a lot of that. And I've seen a lot of sage on the stage stuff, and I, it still exists in medicine. And, and for me, I think, well, wait a minute, if, if I'm always just showing up myself and saying, I know everything and you get to absorb it from me, then what's the ability that I have to actually gain from that situation? I just become more deeply entrenched in my own thoughts and patterns and presentation. So for me, that just doesn't seem like that much fun. And it apparently, scientifically it doesn't bear out that that's actually a very useful way for many people to learn anyway. It's a terrible way for most people to learn, you know just sit and listen. I mean, it is just you know, the kind of one way processing, and it's you know, what we know about how people learn, that just is is it, it, it it's antithetical to, to, to the evidence of what we know about is effective for people learning. So, which is interesting. But I, you know, I think you brought up a really good point about that exchange that both of, you know, the, that opportunity to learn from each other. and, and it's also learning on a personal level about how to connect with different people how to communicate with different people, how to work with different people. and because, you know, people have different styles, and some of 'em have been more challenging for me than others, just because they're, they, it wasn't that the person was challenging, it was they were just different than I was accustomed to. So I had to really push myself to get out of my comfort zone to really be able to work with these folks and understand, you know, I'm trying to get them to form to what I want them to be, rather than me adapting to who they are. And I think that that that also goes back to the art too, about, you know, I can change some things, but there's some things I cannot change. And so it's either I've gotta adapt to it or you know, I, it's not going to, it's not gonna work. And so my, my buddy Dan Clint said to me long ago, you know, almost soon after I met him he said that he had a Native American tell him, he said, when you push, things push back, but when you stand back and let things flow, they flow. And so I've tried to, you know, and my wife has reminded me of that many times as I get anxious and try to move things along, and she's like, you're pushing, and it's pushing back . It's like, oh, don't use that against me, because I know it's true , but it, it, it's, you know, when something's not working, it's usually because I'm pushing too hard and I've gotta let, you know, sometimes step back and let things flow. And it's, it's, I, I think that the reason why I'll push frequently is I have this vision, this goal in mind, this vision of this is what it's gonna look like when it's done. And here I want to see it, and, you know, because this is gonna be really, you know, a great thing. And yet it's part of, part of the process is the journey. And I've gotta keep, keep that in mind as well. And so, you know, I'm, I'm, it's only taken, I don't know, many, many years for me to figure that out, , but, and I'm still learning it, but I mean, it's part of the lifelong, you know, it's part of the human condition and lifelong learning. and so it's, it's better than if, if you don't learn it , I think, Well, you told me this great story about a found object that you had wanted to make into a table, and then you realized that as you're putting the top on the table, the table is moving. And you said to yourself, well, either I can turn this into a trick table , in which people put their glasses on it, and then the glasses fall off, or I can make it into a kinetic sculpture and I can do with it what it wants to have done. Right? So I think that's a great example of what you're describing. You know, you're pushing it into one form, and it's saying, but I, that's not the form I'm meant to be. I'm meant to be something else. Yeah. I was gonna name that tie. The, the table is, I, I think I kitted with you. I was gonna name it, sobriety test to you know, kind of this table that move. And if you know, you, you're having a hard time keeping track of it, it's probably time to, to to back away in many ways. but that was actually, that's the second time that's happened in about six months. I also started making a table base. I out of a chain, and I welded each of the links together, and I had it spiral up, and I get it, and I started putting the top on, and I realized it's moving all over. And once again, going, oh, I wanted this to be a table, and it looks, it would be so cool as a table. And yet it's saying, you know, and I could have made that chain rigid and I could have, you know, welded some other things on there to make, but it, it so much more beautiful and so much more fun as a kinetic sculpture. And so you know, to embrace that opportunity as an opportunity rather than a problem, you know, that kind of entrepreneurial mindset of, you know, taking those risks to try new things like that as an art, you know, in doing the art. But then, you know, when you're faced with a situation, not, not seeing it as a failure, but as an opportunity, how can I, how can I take advantage of this situation? And so I've done that a lot, and I, I've had some sculptures where I went down one direction or, you know, some piece of art. I went down one direction and it just wasn't working. And I've put it aside and, and let it, you know, and, and you know, ruminate on it for a while and then come back and go, I know what I can do with that. And so giving it some time and space and letting it, you know, kind of think about things for a while and, and using your, you know, use my imagination, I think is really, really important part of that. And in many ways once again, that pushing thing again, , you know, standing back and, and letting it flow. and so that certainly has, has been more fruitful than pushing, that's for sure. I, I remember at the, the beginning of this conversation, I mentioned two things I wanted to talk about, and one I think we've certainly discussed at some length, although I'm sure we could keep talking for hours, but the other is the music. And for me, this is really interesting because you are a musician of stringed instruments, but not just one stringed instrument. You, you have many stringed instruments, and in particular you have one that not many people would think about using on a regular basis. Tell me about that. I've got one right here in my office here. I keep one in my office because I'll play it when I have a break, or I need just a mind break. And so if you got just a moment, I'll go grab it. you know, it's a, it's called a mountain dulcimer or a lap dulcimer, and it's played typically as sitting on one's lap, but it can also be put on a tabletop and played on the tabletop as well. I don't know if I can, I don't think I can do that quite there, but, you know, played on a tabletop there. And so with this, then there are typically, there's three strings, four strings, six strings. There's different configurations of these, but there's a, a melody a harmony and a base for these. Now they can be tuned in different keys. This one, one of the most common tunings is a d a D, so d a d. And so and then the fret, it works very much like the fret of other instruments like, you know, the guitar or, you know, mandolin or some other instrument that has frets like that banjo and so forth with it for forming the different notes. And so these can be picked. So, you know, if I was to play something picked, it can be something like, or it can be strummed, so it could be something more like this. Now I started playing this about a year ago, and so I and I've taken a couple of lessons. I, I'm taking a meet every other week now for about 45 minutes with a teacher. and I, I think that this is one of those things for me that is, is really interesting. You know, I, I was reflecting back my mom and stepdad when I was probably about eight years old. I class when in Denver on making dulcimers, and I never heard 'em really play 'em, but I saw him, you know, making 'em and so forth with that. And they made a couple of them and then, you know, that that was done and they were on to, you know, whatever else the next hobby was there. but you know, I thought what an opportunity, had I played it then, you know, I'd probably be, you know, teaching the lessons instead of taking the lessons. But the nice thing about it, and like I said, I picked it up about a year ago and is, it's humbling because I'm pretty successful in most of the other things I do. And then to pick this up, it's like, okay, now I'm, I'm kind of, I don't wanna say starting over, but starting definitely at a very, very novice level. But I keep on reminding myself is something that I tell my students, and I've talked to you about as well in one of the classes is expertise is a long-term process, and the kind of, the rule of thumb is five years or 10,000 hours of concentrated practice. And so, you know, when I practice at half hour a day, five days a week, I have many, many years to go to get to the level of being expert, but I'm getting to the level where I'm feeling it's fun and, and, and I'm not frustrated when I'm playing. and, and I, I, you know, once again, that frustration is pushing, I wanna be good at this instead of going, you know, this is a journey, not a destination. And so that's been a really interesting part of this process. But I think that this instrument is just such a beautiful sounding instrument as well, that a lot of the music that is, that we're playing, some of it's folk music and I say we're playing because my wife started this about a year and a half ago during, you know, it's kind of toward the tail end of the pandemic. And she started taking some classes and got into it, and I was, you know, starting to pick my guitar back up at the time. And working, you know, and, and really refining some of my guitar skills, and then she started doing this. It's like after a while I, I got so intrigued. It's like, okay, I want to do it too , because it's something we do together, which is really fun as well. and so now we have some jam groups that we jam with every week there's a couple of different groups that we go to. And we've made friends through this circle and we one of the kind of meccas for dulcimer and dulcimer playing is actually here in Arkansas and it's in Mountain View, Arkansas. And that's actually where this instrument was made, is that the dulcimer shop there. and it's mixed badden dulcimer is what it is. And so we've taken lessons up there and gone to some of the events up there and so forth too and connected with the community there as well. So yeah, so this is, it's a, a, a fun journey. I just think that the once again, it's an opportunity for me to continue to learn, and I gotta keep on reminding myself as you've brought up, not yet . Well, and hopefully maybe not ever, right? I mean, once we decide we're we're done, we've learned all that we need to learn, I guess we all might as well just hang it up, right, . Yeah, that's true. That's true. You know, and, and you know, I think that the people that I've seen that are, are, you know, I, I Dwayne Porterfield is guy here that we've taken lessons with up in Mountain View to national champion for DL lap dulcimer, you know or the mountain dulcimer. And he stays fresh by continuing to play new songs and making new music. And you know, he real inspiration that way too. And I don't, you know, I don't think, I think that you've become expert at playing, but I think that when you do that, you continue to push in new ways. And I, that's very true for me professionally in exploring new ideas where there's some people, it's like, I don't have any expertise in that. It's like, good, I can learn. You know, for me not to have an expertise in an area is not an excuse for me not to, not to get involved in a project. you know, I've published a, a, a research piece with an attorney and which we were looking at court cases and comparing different court cases, and I have , you know, my legal background is, is, you know, I don't have one. and so, but I learned a lot from doing that. But that was once again, I, I brought to the table publishing skills, writing skills this kind of organizational skills that are required for putting together a publishable article. and so I bring that there, but then I get to learn all kinds of things as well. So it's, you know, once again, like working with you mutually beneficial, and that's true with these musical instruments as well. I think Dr. Delson, it's truly been a pleasure to spend time talking about a lot more of the creative aspects of the, the life that you live. in addition to all the time that you and I spend talking about the academic issues that we do I know that you're hoping to have a show which many people who are watching or listening to this may not be able to get to because I believe it's in Arkansas, but it's going to be this fall, correct? Yeah, I'm, I'm, I'm hoping, you know, one of the, two of the things that I'm looking at, and I just haven't had time to, to do this, but I've gotta get it organized soon, because, you know, opportunities close up when you don't get in early on them sometimes. but one of 'em is art Walk here in Conway happens the first Monday of each, I mean, first Friday of each month. And so I'm hoping that I can do a show or two at first Friday in the near future. I've gotta look into it, you know, I've done some shows in the past, but none of them in Arkansas, we, we did some in, in when we were in Nevada. We did some when we were in Washington state. but I haven't done any for a while. So but my shop is filling up with pieces, , so I've, I've gotta either start giving them away or, you know, find, find new owners for 'em or something there, because I'm gonna run outta space and I have a large shop. So it's time to kind of move some things along. Okay. Well, we won't hold you to the possibility of being in an art walk show, but we will hold, hold open the possibility that you will be in one. So for those people Yeah, that sounds good. . Yes. So for those people who are listening to, are watching Radio Maine and happen to be in Arkansas at the time that your pieces are there, they will have the opportunity to interact with your pieces. And hopefully you I would, I would look forward to that. That would be delightful. I appreciate, again, the chance to talk with you more about other aspects of your life in addition to the academic pursuits. And I've been speaking for those of you who've been watching with Dr. Lewis Needleson, who is a professor at the University of Central Arkansas, and also a creative to a pretty high degree. Thank you for joining me today. Thank you so much for this opportunity. It's been a delightful conversation. I really appreciate it.