From Northern Maine To Commander of US Naval Forces Europe. Meet Admiral "Grog" Johnson USN Ret.

Today I have with me, US and retired Admiral Gregory Johnson, also known as Grog. Mm-hmm. , thanks for being here today. Well, Lisa, it's a pleasure to be here and thanks for having me. Yeah. It's gonna be hard for me to call you grog, not knowing you particularly well, but I think it's important that other people understand why it is that that is your nickname. Well, it comes from my profession. I was in the Navy and I was a pilot, and all pilots have a call sign. You actually use it for practical purposes. Tactical, uh, that's the name of your flight. If you're the flight leader, it's gro flight and you're doing radio checks and what have you. And so everybody has a call sign and you don't actually get to pick your call sign. Not everybody gets to be maverick. And, uh, so it evolved that my name's close to Greg probably also had to do with a little bit of too much liberty or something with, uh, as we call them, 12 ounce curls. And, uh, so I got the name Grog, and that's, that was in 1970. And most everybody that knows me from the Navy still calls me grog. The Navy wasn't a natural path for you in, in your life. You grew up in the county and you had the potential for pot for going into potato farming. Mm-hmm. , um, thought you might wanna be a lawyer, but ended up going into the military, unlike many of your family members. Tell me about that Decision. Well, ever since I was a young kid and started reading books, we had, the book came around once a month. And even when I was in grade school, I started reading books about law and lawyers and equal justice under law. And I've had kind of an idealistic streak. And so that was my consuming interest to become an attorney. And, uh, I went to the University of Maine after I graduated, uh, from Caribou High School. And my major was government. And then, uh, I applied to the, I went, applied to one university, applied to one law school, university, main law school. And, uh, but I was graduating in June of 1968 and there were no more deferments. And I was, uh, told by the lady at the draft board in Caribou that, uh, I was gonna graduate on June 7th, I think it was. And on June 10th, she was gonna give me a one-way ticket, uh, Fort D's, New Jersey, and an eight weeks private Johnson, you're gonna be headed for Vietnam. So, uh, that was a little bit of a denial. And I had to withdraw from the University of Maine Law School. I got my $300 back and, uh, ended up going in the Navy with the attempt to do the minimum amount of time and then come back to law school. But as I found out, I, or as I learned, it was a really compelling career. And I stayed in and spent 36 years in the Navy. You and my father actually have a little bit of a parallel path. You and my, my mother and father were both at the university, had made roughly the same time. No, I knew you, who your father was. Yep. Charlie Bele. Charlie Bele, he played football Yes. And was in the Tangerine Bowl, I believe, somewhere around 1960 something. Yeah. Seven, I think it was like the, uh, was, well, I was at the University of Maine. I can't remember exactly which year it was, but Yeah. Yes, somewhere in The sixties, late Youngstown State. There you go. There you go. I believe, well, we'll, we'll fit this history together, the two of us. But then also he ended up going into the Navy and went down to Jacksonville where he was doing his residency in family medicine. Mm-hmm. . And, um, I was with him as a very small baby. Mm-hmm. . Um, but I, I vividly remember, um, just the, the culture of the Navy came to learn that this was really the culture of the military in general. Mm-hmm. , it was very family oriented. There was really a sense of comradery and, you know, it was its own very kind of, um, specific world. Mm-hmm. that's different than I think many of us Yeah. Who are not in the military encounter. So you probably lived on NS Jacksonville at the DNAs Jacksonville Hospital? Well, we, I've been there. Mm-hmm. don't remember it very well cause I was quite young. But we lived in Orange Park, not far Away. That's where I had my first home. I was a Cecil Field, which is the, uh, where the tactical airplanes were. And as Jacks had helicopters and p threes. And then it was Mayport where surface ships out of the coast. So that hospital served all of it. And in fact, our oldest daughter was born in that hospital. And I spent, uh, all the time, first 25 years flying in and outta Cecil Field. So we lived in Jacksonville a lot, including Orange Park. Oh, there you go. Yeah, I think I had, I think at least maybe four siblings that actually may have been born, um, in Jacksonville. Mm-hmm. , there's 10 of us, so it's hard for me to keep track. Exactly. Yeah. But quite a few. So there's, there's another kind of commonality. Yeah. So, uh, yeah, our first child was born there and the second child was born in Bethesda. WeDo, my first, uh, assignment in the Pentagon. So I know that another commonality that you share with my parents is not growing up in a household that necessarily was, um, pointing you towards an interest in art. That true. My, my parents both have come to actually like, and appreciate art in part through watching me do this work and watching me work with a Portland art gallery. Yours was a different path. Yeah, slightly. Uh, books became important to me. Of course, your parents always pushed you cuz they wanted a better life for you. And it was always that I was gonna, all the children were gonna go to college. That's what they work for. And so books became very important. We didn't really have very many, but like I said, back in those days there was a bookmobile and it went around. And so every month I would get two or three books and, and, uh, I started reading books about law and read fiction, read all kinds of books. And so I had this passion for reading. And, uh, slowly, uh, I got, uh, started realizing, uh, how important artists and literature and poetry, and it actually ties into my concept of the profession I was in. Because I thought of my profession as the profession of peace. I was in the peace business through national security, US national security, and the, uh, road to Peace is, I believe comes through strength and is important for us to have a strong, credible military. But also, of course we need the political and national backing. We have the will to use that force or it's not gonna be of any good. So I was consumed by that and the diplomatic side of it. And I happened to work for some people who were extremely capable, polished, uh, diplomats. One was the former chairman of the Joint Chiefs, uh, Colin Powell. And I was his executive assistant for two years. And we traveled all over the world and I watched him. And then I worked three years in the office of the Secretary of Defense when a son of Maine was a Secretary of Defense, William Cohen. And he was an incredibly effective and polished diplomat. And a way to break down barriers, whether you're in Russia at that time, it was a Soviet Union, or in our allies, is to talk about their culture and always have a line from poetry or who their famous authors are, or the artists or scientists. Like you went to Serbia and you had to mention Tesla. And, uh, so I always picked up that from them. And so I got very fascinated by it. And we often visited US ambassadors and there was always art in their homes and in the embassies and a couple of places we went where the ambassador was from Maine, uh, ambassador O'Leary unfortunately passed away, but he was the ambassador in, uh, Chile. And I was on a visit there with Secretary Cohen and he had a reception at his house and it was full of art from Maine. And so when I became a senior commander in Europe and responsible for all the nations in Europe and Africa at that time, I got this book, art of the Islands of Maine, or Art of the Main Islands. And I'd buy him 50 at a time. And so when you travel, then you always wanted to have a house gift or a gift to leave to your counterpart, cuz they always gave you a gift. So the gift that I used in the four years that I was a senior commander in Europe was this book. And I kept buying them in boxes of 50. And I must have, so throughout Africa and Europe, I don't know if you can still find them, but I bet I used about 150 to 200 copies of this particular book. And so I became fascinated by art and started trying to collect pieces in the modest resources that we had. But I also comes back to this theme of, of peace and the business of peace because you're always looking for the better angels of mankind. And I think art and literature and poetry are certainly a critical, critical aspect of the better angels of mankind. And so I found that to be a very interesting, uh, venue or pathway to get to the better angels of people. And, uh, so I became quite interested in it. And of course my passion was for particularly main artists and things that spoke to me about Maine. Tell me about some of your early favorites. If you're looking in the art of the Main Islands book, who was an artist that that kind of spoke To you? Well, of course all the very established and famous ones, which I don't have any of there, you know, from Winslow Homer to, uh, you know, the Weiss to all manor of, uh, Fairfield Porter. Uh, so the, you know, I would look at those things, but I think the first piece of art I bought, and that was because my, uh, deceased wife, uh, was from Bucksport and her mother took art lessons from a guy named Francis Ama in Blue Hill. And so I think the first piece of art that I bought was some of his. And, uh, I have quite a few pieces from, uh, Francis Hama. And, uh, and then I became familiar with Eric Hopkins and, uh, as an aviator, uh, and Eric of course learned how to fly. And I think that greatly impacted the direction he went with his art. So I was fascinated by his work. And we have several pieces of I Hopkins both, uh, at my place in Harwell and my current wife Carol Hancock at her house in Cas. So those are two artists in particular that really, uh, spoke to me and we have a lot of their works. Eric is known for doing a lot with horizon lines. Mm-hmm. and also trees. Yeah. So if you look at the, and, and he has very specific sort of trees kind of looking down from above. So is that, when you look at his art, does that mirror your experience or, Well, that was the perspective I had on a lot of things because I spent a lot of time in the air. And so that fascinated with me, and I like that. And of course, he had his islands and the, the trees and all that made me think of Maine and the Coast Coast. And so it, it really, excuse me, spoke to me and still speaks to me to this day. The interesting thing about Eric Hopkins, of course, is that he grew up on a main island himself. Mm-hmm. . And so he not only had this perspective from the air, but he also had a very, um, unique perspective of having grown up on a fairly good size, but still remote Main Island. Yeah, No, I, and of course the Camden Hills, uh, feature strongly in all of his, uh, paintings. And, uh, for Carol and me, uh, who I, she was a cancer widow and I was a cancer widower, and we were introduced to each other. And so we were actually engaged on Idaho, looking at the Camden Hills. We spent a lot of time on North Haven and, uh, we like it out there. And we're looking at the Camden Hills, and we actually got married at Point Lookout on the Camden Hills. So in that sense, it, uh, really speaks to us. And that's another reason why we're very attached to Eric and his paintings. And I got to know him pretty well, and he helped me on some things, uh, as, uh, my passion is public higher education. And he did a nice, when he had his gallery, his own gallery in, uh, in, uh, Rockland, we did a University of Maine alumni meeting there that features Maine and Art. And he gave a painting as a door, you know, he could tell the raffle tickets and gave a wonderful presentation to those who were able to attend that. I think that where his a gallery was is where there's a contemporary art museum now and in, uh, Rockland. And, uh, he was very generous with his time, even though of course he went to Rdy, not to one of our schools. But yeah. Wonderful, wonderful guy, a great son of me. Why is public higher education important to you? Well, I went to the University of Maine. I grew up in a rural part of Maine and, uh, in a very tiny community with 50 people. We had a little one room school house, and I went eight grades there, and then I went to Caribou High School and, and then I went to University of Maine, and that started opening up my horizons and expanding my field of view. And then I went off to the Navy. And, you know, I'll never forget when I left on my first deployment, and, uh, would've been the, yeah, three weeks before my first child. Our first child was born in early September of 1971, and I could not believe that I was gonna be on this US aircraft carrier and we're gonna go across the entire Atlantic Ocean. And, uh, so I spent my life doing that and it, uh, brought a sense of wonderment and, uh, uh, so, uh, that's a part of how I realized that the higher education really opened up my horizons. And so when I came back to Maine, I wanted to get engaged in public higher education. And I have been with the University of Maine, I was on their Board of Visitors and, uh, I was on the board of trustees for the system for two terms. And I was an overseer for nine years, the Board of Overseers at Colby. I was even on the board of Mecca for a while until I had to resign from that because I was engaged with the University of Maine. So I think public higher education, I call it the trip ticket for the rural corners of Maine. And everybody forgets if they live in Cumberland and York counties, that that's only about 10% of the state, and there's 90% of it that's rural and not as well resourced and public higher education is the trip ticket, and not only for them individually, but for the economic wellbeing of the entire state. So I'm very passionate about it. Well, having practiced in rural areas and now being up at the, um, at the hospital up in Augusta, Waterville area, and, um, working with, I will say younger patients that mm-hmm. have gone into the University of Maine system, I think it, I think you're describing something that's really important mm-hmm. , that it's, it becomes something that is more accessible and it is a way for people to broaden their horizons without even leaving the state. True. And of course, uh, very interested in bringing more research and development dollars to our one research university that we have, which doesn't have a medical school, as you well know, which help hurts you a little bit in another source besides National Science Foundation. Uh, the various government agencies that, uh, do research of course is nih. And without a medical school, it's harder to, to, uh, compete for grants from them. But that's all very important. And of course, we now have the program with Tufts, and I think there used to be an affiliation with the University of Vermont Medical School. So we're still reaching out, but bringing more importantly, bringing doctors, dinners, lawyers, professional people to the far corners of the state, because not only is the, that profession required, but they're also pillars of ever their respective communities. And the social fabric of our communities is, is evaporating. And I, uh, that's another area of concern. And, uh, in our rural communities, particularly in AUSA County. And, uh, I call the Rim County, uh, Washington, sca, W County, what have you, the far reaches of Pina Scott, summer Somerset, Franklin and Oxford. So, so that's really a, a area of, I don't wanna say concern, but an area of some passion. Well, I think you and I share similar concerns because one of my jobs, um, as the Assistant Chief Medical Officer is recruiting and retention mm-hmm. for the Waterville Augusta area. And, um, it's been really gratifying to see, um, one of our, one of our recent, um, surgeons that came in, went to Colby mm-hmm. , another surgeon that came in, actually went to Caribou High School and then went to the University of New England and came back mm-hmm. . So I do think that there is opportunity there. I think that people are understanding that, um, their Maine has a lot to offer and that these communities really do have, um, they're safe, they have great education, we're trying to build and maintain great healthcare and even the arts opportunities that you're describing. Yeah. So I think there's a lot to sell. I think it's a great place to raise families. A lot of our people go away, start families, but then they come back. I think there was a big push on that during the pandemic, during C and people came back and, uh, of course with, uh, the way workforces are employed now and stuff, and the people being able to work from home a lot. And, uh, this, uh, another important aspect of this whole thing about education and what have you, is getting broadband into the Nixon crannies of the state of Maine. Uh, and I think that'll help also populate these areas and make it, and of course, it's what we call the trailing spouse. If one person gets a job, what is the partner and the relationship going to? How are they gonna get employed? Which is always a challenge in our rural areas. You know, even Jackson Labs, our universities, what have you, they have these kinds of challenges. So there's a lot I think we could do to that. And broadband is a big part of that as well. Yeah. And again, another parallel, because when I think about what we're trying to do in healthcare, we have, um, digital equity and trying to, there are many patients who don't necessarily, um, have smartphones and have access readily, but if we can actually connect them to our medical staff with broadband and kind of enable that, that ongoing connection, I think that that and education, those, those are really, are the, the pillars that you're describing that will bring and keep people in our state? In our state. Yeah. So, uh, I think, uh, supporting and building interest and for our, uh, for Augusta to strongly support public higher education and, uh, it's very critical for the reasons we just discuss. But also, uh, I think we have great opportunities. This, uh, the route 93 quarter in Massachusetts starts to spread out into Southern New Hampshire and into southern Maine. Uh, we've gotta provide a workforce, uh, that can take those kinds of jobs. And I think we're working at it. I think the ro RU Institute will help, that's a, a good advancement forward. And hopefully there's ways that, uh, the public higher education system in May can leverage, uh, and cooperate and collaborate with them to feed more people in, to create a workforce that'll, we're still in some ways tied to the industrial revolution. And we've got to jump into the, uh, information age, and not only in terms of keep, uh, creating or developing a workforce that can work there, but in the minds of the citizens of Maine. They've gotta forget about textile factories and shoe factories and pulp and paper mills and what have you. And, and leapfrog into the next, uh, um, to the it information age. How have you maintained your connection to the county? And for people who are listening or watching, we're talking about a ROIC county, you and I know what this means cuz we are from Maine. But, um, how do you maintain your connection? Well, uh, I still have some relatives up there and, uh, you know, uh, I also, uh, it's, it's kind of a little sad to say it this way, but my father and, uh, my brother are buried in the little cemetery in Westland, and my mom will be buried there, and I still have some aunts and uncles, uh, that live up there. And so when my dad died, uh, my mom moved to, uh, Brunswick. And, uh, that was fortuitous because I had been to Brunswick like once in my life before she moved there. I was in the Navy then. And, uh, but that brought us to Harpswell and started looking at Harpswell. And so in 1992, while I was still in the Navy, we bought a piece of property, had an old farmhouse and a barn on it, and about 50 acres of land that either had springs in it, so you couldn't drive on it or was ledge, but it was called a farm. And, and, uh, we bought that. And then when I retired in oh four, we came back there to live. And I had never even heard of Harpswell until my mother moved to Brunswick and we started going to the dolphin marina, the old dolphin marina. Uh, and, uh, and my wife at the time declared that this is where we we're gonna live when I retired. So she wasn't going back to Bucksport and we weren't going back to the county. So that's how I ended up in HARs wall. Well, having also, uh, because I went to Bowden mm-hmm. , um, and also I've actually went to the University of Maine. Um, I, I spent time at the old Dolphin mm-hmm. and appreciated both the old Dolphin and the new Dolphin mm-hmm. and all that Harpswell was and is, I think it is a really, it is a really beautiful part of the state. Um, and I also think about these other beautiful parts of the state, like the county mm-hmm. that, you know, are equally wonderful but maybe don't have the salt water. Mm-hmm. , maybe you don't have the same kinds of views. And I think about how do we encourage people to not only visit those parts of the state mm-hmm. , but also stay there and also work there. And what you're describing I think is really important to that. The, the opportunities. I think, uh, the county's having a real challenge these days and they're starting to get focused. I get the Bangor Daily online and track the county edition and try to keep track of what it's doing. But I know Holden and Pasco and Fort, uh, caribou and the St. John Valley at various towns up there are all trying to work to, and find ways to attract people to come up there. And of course, real estate is a bargain, relatively speaking. And, uh, there's a lot of it available. When I grew up, I think the county peaked at about 110,000 people, and now there's just, uh, about 62 or 63,000 people. So it's been quite a, uh, quite a draw down in the people and the human resources that are there. And hopefully, and I think it will and all of this about getting, uh, broadband accessibility and what have you. It's a wonderful place. I loved growing up there and wouldn't trade it for anything. So growing up in the county, first of all, you didn't know that you would join the Navy. You didn't know that you weren't gonna be a lawyer. Mm-hmm. , you didn't know that you were gonna like art. Mm-hmm. , I assume you probably didn't have any sense that you'd be traveling the world alongside people who were really effectively acting as ambassadors. Mm-hmm. , do you look back at your younger self and, um, have any thoughts about what you might say to that person? To people that are in, that are now in my place? Yeah, because I think sometimes when you grow up in a very specific way Yeah. You don't really know what, what could actually be out there. No, I, uh, uh, I, you don't know. I would've never, up until the day I joined the Navy, I never would've thought that I would've ever ever been in that profession. I hadn't, I didn't take, I wasn't rozy at Maine. Uh, no one in my family had been in the military. And, uh, but an opportunity came, I took it because in reality, I wanted to avoid the draft is why I picked the program called Aviation Officer Canada School, which was just like the movie officer and gentleman. And my drill instructor was just like Lou Gossett in that, uh, movie. And that transformed my life. And I got in there and then it, uh, I had an opportunity to go to the Naval War College in a special program where they wanted to take some lieutenants to the junior course in Newport. And, uh, so that was as close as I could get to Maine. Uh, and, uh, so I volunteered for this program. There were six of us, and once I went to the Naval War College, that's when I had this transformation in my mind that aviation wasn't an end in itself. It was a means towards an end. And the end I was in was the national security business. And the output from that should be peace and peace that provides an environment where every individual can maximize their aspirations and their full potential. And so that's what I thought I was doing. And once I had put it in that context and that, uh, way of approaching my career, then I made the decision, no, this is something I wanna stay and be part of. And so that's what I thought I was doing, and that's, those were the outputs that I thought were important. And I think in some ways, uh, we have been successful. I, in terms of outlook worldwide, I say I'm a moderate realist, a passionate internationalist, and I have a streak of idealism in me. And, you know, still like to think that American democracy and free market are, uh, the way of the future. But right now, autocratic rule is in a descendancy and, and, uh, you know, democracy is actually in decline. So I find this very concerning when you move from Maine or the United States to a world, uh, stage. And I think we all should take pause from that and think about it and how, what things can we do, uh, to turn that trend around you and get it going in the other direction. So one of the things that you did was to try to connect through art and culture with people. Do you feel like there's a way that we could take that lesson and, and use it more broadly as we try to get back on the same, um, wavelength with people around the world? Yes, I absolutely do. Again, I, I view it as art. The arts, humanities take the rough edges off from all of us. And what I've learned, we hate to admit it, and we sometimes get engaged in wishful thinking that the, whatever genes there are in us that can quickly turn us to do the most horrible things against fellow men and mankind, uh, I believe that that's, that's unfortunately a latent capacity that you can't imagine it. But people have in them. And when times are changing rapidly and people are fearful, there's always a demagogue that can come along and play that music and people will often respond to it. And so I think that anything we can do do in terms of the arts, the humanities, uh, like I said, that brings out the better angels in us. And so I think it's a very important instrument. And music is a universal language. Art is a universal language. Literature is a universal language. And so I think they're very important. So I'm a big proponent of the humanities and, uh, we need all the stem to keep competitive and r and d, but we need to have, and that's why I like, you know what it's called, the liberal education of a university. And yes, you have the technical and we need that to compete in the, in the world today, but we also need to make sure people are well grounded in the humanities. And that's also part of that is building, becoming good citizens and having a, again, you've gotta have something that feeds and grows those better angels dna part of the dna, uh, so that we can not be vulnerable to those who might come. Whether it's, uh, there's all kinds of demagogue and, uh, you know, autocracy in the world today. But I think that this is one way that we can, uh, put up some barriers to that. So it sounds like what you're saying is we need to look to the arts to strengthen these better angels to kind of combat the other side of things. Mm-hmm. , I think, uh, if people can appreciate it, whether it's music, whatever it is, I think that that is a good, good, uh, prophylactic for the, the, uh, darker side. But of course, even in people who are masters of that, use the arts to try to help them too for, you know, Nazi Germany, uh, was very prolific in it. Uh, you know, some of the best music dance literature in the world is Russian literature, dance music. And so, uh, it can go both ways. But I think on the whole, it's very important and I think it's very important in our schools that as times get hard, uh, the other areas, physical education and physical training, because I think our country spends way more than anybody else on healthcare, and we do acute care very well. And we don't do healths and wellness very well at all. And so our outputs are deteriorating, they're not improving, they're getting worse. That's a troublesome thing. Same with education. Our education system, we've put more in it than any other country. Yet our outputs, as we just learned last week, uh, are downward. And so I consider those to be incredibly important issues that we need to address. And I unfortunately, we're at a time where our government has forgot that they're in there to govern. They forgot the governing part. And, uh, so I find, uh, that, uh, quite concerning. And I think it's probably one of the biggest issues. In fact, the profession I come from, the cohort group we're interested in, there's 18 to 24 year olds. And right now in America, how many, only 30% of all the young people in America who are between 18 and 24 are eligible to serve in the armed forces of the United States. 70% of them aren't from just plain not being able to pass ASAP tests because our schools have become a factory and they push 'em through and they, they, they can't do tests and they can't obesity, drug abuse, uh, all kinds of reasons. So 30 70% of Americans a America's youth can't even serve in the armed forces of the United States. So I think that should be something should be concerning with people. And also the idea of public service. And, uh, that is, I think, eroding as well. Government is having a hard time filling jobs. The services are all having a hard time, uh, recruiting people. And I think our military in particular should be a exact mirror image of society. And that's not the case, particularly so not on socioeconomic grounds, uh, and, uh, rural poor and inner city poor. They're the people who end up doing the fighting for us, kind of how this has been. And so I think that that's something that we ought to take a look at and getting, I'm not saying we should go back to the draft, but I would think that we might start thinking about universal public service, which I would be very much in favor of. Well, you've given me a lot to think about. We have a lot of, uh, a lot of different areas that we could start work at God, but, you know, it does actually make me happy because my, my youngest daughter's boyfriend is in the Army mm-hmm. , and he is out of Fort Drum. He's a helicopter, he's on a helicopter flight crew. Yeah. And he is one of the ones who has chosen to join the military and has passed all of the, um, tests and recently was promoted. Wonderful. So I, I look to Ryan as kind of hope for the future. So that, the good thing about what you're describing is that we have people who are currently doing this. Mm-hmm. , we have people who are working on it. So even though we've got a, we've got a lot of room to move. Yeah. We're still moving forward in a positive direction. Yeah. And, uh, right now the, and that's, I'm very proud of Ryan and I wish him very well and thankful for his service. And, but the, the, uh, number of families that have, anybody that's a relative uncle, cousin parent is getting smaller and smaller. And, uh, it used to be 70% of our Congress had prior military service, now it's around 15%. And so, uh, and so it's actually the people that are on active duty tend to be all sons and daughters are people who were on active duty.