Growth Mindset: Colleen Barry

Today in our studio we have Colleen Barry, she's the CEO of Gibson, Sotheby's International Realty, and so much more. Good morning. Good morning. Thanks for coming in today. I'm thrilled to be here. I'm a listener of the podcast. Oh, well, fantastic. And I can't wait to listen to your podcast, so thank you. Beautiful human. That's right. This is almost ready to launch. That's right. We're going to launch next month. It's a friend of mine and I, Christine Newell, and she's the author of a wonderful book about gratitude. So she has always been an inspiration for me over the last several years of we've gotten to know each other and finally she said to me, we should really do this podcast thing. Let's share our thoughts and ideas. And I had gone through a lot over the last year and a half, and I found that as I shared it, and I was encouraged to share what I was personally going through. Other people were saying, this is an experience that I had and I didn't know other people had. So I saw this as an opportunity for the two of us to share what we're going through as leaders, as mothers, as people, as women who are going through different stage of life. So I'm so excited to share these conversations that we're having. We had Christine on our show remotely. And she talked about gratitude, and as a result, I every day tried to either write a thank you note or send a thank you email, because gratitude was always a part of my practice anyway, but I was like, I'm going to make this a little bit more of an actual practice. And it does. It makes a huge difference because it focuses your mind in a way that says, thank you for all the things I have, rather than let me stay focused on the things I don't have. That's right. It reminds me of the concept that I read about in a book called The Gap in the Gain, which is really about, we have a tendency, I think, to measure the gap between where we are today and where we want to be as opposed to measuring the gain of where we've come from. And when we really start to think about things like that, all of the blessings that we have in our lives or what we've been able to accomplish, it's pretty astonishing really. It can be kind of mind blowing and can help you build the confidence to go into your day with just a little more oomph, a little more strength. So there's a lot to gratitude that I think is hugely valuable to people. Absolutely. And I can't really let you go without telling me a little bit more about what's been going on in the last year and a half for you. I mean, you can't tease us with that, Colleen, and then not actually give a little bit of information. I know you want to save some of it for your own podcast, but tell me what's been happening. About a year and a half ago probably I was particularly unhealthy, but not by American standards. I'd say I was probably smack dab in the middle of American life and I wasn't feeling great, but I had an exciting challenge that was coming up at work where two of my close colleagues were headed out on maternity leave. It just so happened at the same time, they were due within a week of each other, and I thought, I've got to get myself into better shape to run this company with the rest of our leadership team. We're going to be down two really valuable, important people. And so I happened to at that time also be introduced to a gentleman who, a friend of mine said, you might be able to help coach him a little bit. He wants to do some more speaking, he wants to do some other things. And so he introduced me to a gentleman named Aaron Williamson, who actually had been a fitness expert for a number of actors who were getting ready for an action hero movie where they have to go from being in good shape, but to being in superhero like Superman or Superwoman shape. And so we happen to be talking. His story is just amazing. He had been kind of a troubled kid. He'd gone into the Marines, he found fitness, then he came home and so many other returning servicemen and women, he really struggled with PTSD. He became homeless at one point, and then it was the fitness element that really lifted him out. So I hung up the phone after making a couple of introductions with him, and I thought, you need to get into better shape, and the universe literally delivered this man to your doorstep. You've got to call him back. So I did, and we've been friends ever since. But he helped me really turn my life around and turn my health around. And so that was sort of the beginning of a journey that then went through a number of different things, personal losses in my family, which became an emotional journey, then a spiritual journey that I would say I'm still on to this day. So it's been really a huge growth spurt, I guess I would have to say here at the end of my forties, which I am so grateful for. Speaking of gratitude,. It's interesting as you're talking that in traditional Chinese medicine they talk about for women seven years, every seven years you actually transform and you're actually, it sounds like you're right on that cusp of a seven year transition. I would say so, and I have found that to be about right. I remember reading that and thinking that tracks in my experience personally. it's a hard thing. I mean, if you work so hard to get to a certain place, then the idea that things could really dramatically shift and that now you're going to have a whole new set of challenges potentially. Oh, I totally agree. I think anytime you do a lot of work, it is likely to reveal other parts of you. They could be challenges, it could be elements that you've been ignoring, and throughout all of that, you could look at it from the outside and say, here's someone who's accomplishing something great, which I truly was with the help of my family and of course Aaron and my friends. But of course, every once in a while something would come up and I think to myself, why am I feeling this way after doing all of this work? And I've been working with this fabulous gentleman, Andrew Menino, he's a structural integration expert, so he's helping me realign my body, had a number of old injuries and things that have kind of gotten me wound up in a way. And I was telling him, I said, yeah, I've been kind of feeling down lately. And he said, someone said to me years ago, the water runs dirty when you're cleaning the well. And I thought, that is so appropriate, and it's something, I'm a very visual person. So that resonated with me in a very big way. And I think the act of growth is often pretty complicated. It can be messy, and I'm okay with that, but I think it takes having good friends. I have a few really close friends who I can talk to about these things, and they're also going through growth in their lives. So as we're discovering things, we are sharing with each other, and it just sort of is almost like somebody peeling back the curtain and you go, oh, okay. Now that's why I'm feeling that way. So I'm so fortunate because I think this journey that I'm on at this stage in my life, I've got others who are riding alongside That is really important, I think, to know that what you're going through is not unusual. It doesn't in any way make you strange or different or odd. I mean, this is just life agreed. It's just what happens. Absolutely. I think we we're all made by our experiences we're essentially programmed and some of those experiences we've chosen and others we haven't. But I think ultimately it's up to you to decide what of that programming do you want to keep? What do you want to discard and what do you want to reprogram or add in? It's like cleaning out a closet sort of. So when I think about you and your life and based on my very limited, we ask people for some information before they come in, and obviously you're a friend of Emma's and of Heather's, and they've both been on the podcast, and I don't think people would know by looking at you that you've had the career journey that you've had. You originally were a graphic designer, you were a documentary filmmaker. You worked your way up from a much smaller version of the real estate work you do now. That's right in, I guess you were doing rental properties. Yeah, so actually my first job at this company 22 years ago was answering phones in the rental office. It was 2002, and it was after the.com bust. I had finished a year long contract in the documentary film world, and that was of course post nine 11 too. So the economy was not in a great spot. A lot of my friends who had spectacular jobs where they were paying way too much money to have these folks on staff and everybody had ping pong tables and there were beer taps in every employment office. It was just ridiculous in that.com era, but everybody was laid off, and so I was piecing things together to make my mortgage work, and I was cooking pizzas in a restaurant. I was doing some freelance graphic design work because that's where my training had been. And one of my neighbors said, Hey, give me your resume. They need someone to answer phones in the rental office. And I said, sure, I'll take it. And I did. And through a series of basically saying yes, but also finding mentors within the organization and just trying to do my best to help people. I now am the CEO of the firm, and we're a much larger organization. So we were a three office company, and then we were purchased by two local businessmen and great mentors, one of whom has become really a family member to me in many ways, Larry, and they helped build the company up. And so we all work together, and now we have almost 30 offices in the state of Massachusetts and about 500 agents. So it's been quite a journey. But during that time period, I'm a big believer that there are two things that will help you generate success. It's skill acquisition. So education is so important, whether you're educating yourself or you're going to institutions for that help. And then the other piece is doing more than is required. Just sure there's the job and how it's laid out in front of you in terms of the role and the tasks they're asking you to do, but it's so much more important to figure out what is going to be fulfilling for you. And a lot of times it's so much more than what's on that list on that job description. So those two things really helped me advance and continue to do so in a way that it's even surprising to me someone who lived it. So it's been really a ton of fun. And I continue to love this role because I get to lift people up. And something that's important to me is there's a difference between management and leadership. And I had a lot of managers leading up to working with Larry, and then he's a real leader. So what he tries to do is figure out where are your strengths? Where's your curiosity and how can we help you really pursue that? And I remember at one point saying to him, there was somebody who wanted to take classes in something, and I said, are you worried that if they take those classes, they'll leave? And he said, Colleen, everyone leaves you eventually. Management just delays the process. He said, I would rather train them and have them leave than not train them and have them stay. So I've learned a great deal from him and also from the others around me, Michelle, Nicole, all these people who are just so kind and thoughtful and hardworking, and they're really driven to lift other people up. That's such a profound statement. That's so much wisdom. I mean, both what you just said, but also what Larry said. Yes. I mean this idea that, I mean, nobody stays in a job forever. No. And even back in the day when people did stay in a job for 30 years, I mean there was still a progression. Most people, yes, most people weren't showing up doing exactly the same thing. Right, right. That's right. But I think sometimes it's easy for us to say, no, you fit my need right now. Please keep being that person. That's right. That's right. So how, as somebody who is in leadership, how do you have confidence that by just enabling this individual and working with this person to be the best version of themself that I have faith that it's going to work out the way it needs to? It's a great question, and it wasn't something that was easy for me initially. I really struggled with when people would leave and they left with good reason. I mean things would change in their lives or they were looking for advancement in an area we just didn't have or whatever it was, that was a struggle for me initially, it felt really personal because I'm so personally invested in what we're all doing. However, over time I started to learn that there's a flow to this even in life, romantic relationships, family relationships, there's a flow. We're each on our own journeys and we ride along for a while because it makes sense for a while, but it doesn't necessarily make sense forever. And that's not failure. I just think that's the nature of life. So even romantic relationships that end, I remember a friend of mine saying, I can't believe it. Our marriage is ending. We've been together for 20 years. What a failure. And I said, that's not a failure. I think there was a time where it made sense for them and they were growing together and they had lots of things in common, and then over time, that didn't quite work so well. So now it really made more sense for them to kind of divide and go off on their own journey. So I think there was a lot of learning during that time period, and again, leaning into my mentors and saying, I can't figure out why I'm taking this so personally. I can't figure out why this is so difficult. It shouldn't be so difficult. And them helping me with little introspection and them sharing their own stories. And that was really helpful for me in sort of recalibrating how I framed those circumstances. I think reframing is hugely important to me when it comes to the experiences that I have. I do it with my son. I'll watch him struggle with something and I'll try to help him reframe it so that the perspective becomes something that is more exciting for him as opposed to a letdown. And that's the way I try to look at these things. I think what you're describing it is really important because we were meeting with the artists actually yesterday, which we do at the Portland Art Gallery. We bring them all together, and one of our artists, deland, Vander Scaff, she said to the rest of the group, I know you get concerned about standing up in front of people, but when you feel nervous, look at that as just energy. It's just energy. You don't have to look at it as anxiety. You don't have to look at it as fear. It's just the energy of moving you forward. And that's okay. I love that. I love that. I think there's value in reframing that piece and understanding that excitement and anxiety are really kind of two sides of the same coin. But I think there's also something about getting comfortable with being uncomfortable. That's so important because I think we have a tendency to seek out comfort and to want to stay in that. The problem you run into of course is that initially that's like a hug, and then eventually it's like the hug of a boa constrictor. So your world will get progressively smaller if you try to stay comfortable. If you can get used to being a little uncomfortable, then what happens I think is that you expand those boundaries over time and you develop confidence in areas you didn't think you'd have confidence. I remember hearing recently, fear is a mile wide, but it's an inch deep. And that's definitely been my experience that if I'm afraid of something, if I really face it and I go right at it, it's amazing how often it just dissipates immediately. It's like a fog, it just goes away. So I think if people can get comfortable being uncomfortable, they'll find that their path opens up quite a bit more. As somebody that has spent 22 years in essentially sales, which is I think probably one of the hardest professions there is, that's my personal opinion, but some people might say, oh, being a doctor's hard, and I'm like, no, no. I think sales probably tops the list here. You are continually needing to show up and work with people, understand where they're coming from, understand what their needs are, but also pay your bills and make sure that the people that work with you are cared for. And so there is an uncertainty that's involved in sales because you really never know if somebody's at the right place to be buying a house, for example. That's right. Or not. So how do you work with that uncertainty and the idea that I need this person to buy this house. That's really, it's not about me, it's about them. That's right. So it's interesting because, so I don't personally sell myself, but I lead salespeople and that uncertainty is constantly there for them. And what I found is that if you start really thinking about yourself as the start of every day, what am I going to do for myself? How am I going to make this work for me? It escapes you. It's like a wet bar of soap. The harder you at it, the faster it leaps out of your hands. And the reality is when you can come at it from a servant's heart, the idea that I am here to help others get through a challenging time, to help them build wealth, to help them find the right place to raise their families or to take on a new chapter in their lives, if you can look at it with that perspective, everything changes and people feel cared for. And that's ultimately really, if you think about it, it's how we evolved is we're tribal, so we need to care for one another and to show that. And I think the other element of uncertainty is that obviously things are changing constantly in the world, in the economy, there are all kinds of factors. Right now, our industry is facing a big change in terms of regulatory rules and everything else. And so when I see that coming, what I have to do is I have to help get people very comfortable with these new concepts. And the reason is because a confused mind says no. So if somebody is unclear about what is going to happen and they don't know how to talk about it naturally, they're going to avoid those conversations again, they're going to run to comfort like we were just talking about a moment ago. So what I try to do is find a way to get them comfortable with these concepts, to be able to reframe things again. So for instance, in the situation we're in right now, I see this shift in our industry as being a desire for transparency from consumers, which totally makes sense. Consumers are getting more and more used to transparency. And every change that's happened in the last 30 years in our industry has been around transparency. And so I see it as an opportunity to wrap our arms around that and to be as transparent as we possibly can be. Let's be more transparent than everybody else in our marketplace. And I think that can become an advantage because every time you're facing a crisis, there's an opportunity within it, but you have to find it and you can't find it by hiding under a rock. So the moment we heard that there was a shift happening, and we'd been preparing in many ways for years for that, but it had moved into the urgent and important quadrant. It had been important but not urgent before it moved into the urgent quadrant. And so we thought the best way that we could help our agents is to get out ahead of it, to explain things, to boil it down, and to help them so that they were comfortable talking about it. And what I found is that our agents is being leaders in that space now, having the comfort and the facility for that conversation has actually opened up more opportunities for them. So I see my job in leadership as looking at where the challenges are and trying to remove the obstacles. I jokingly call myself the chief obstacle remover. That's really what I do for employees, for our agents, for our clients, is where is there an obstacle and how can I use the resources that we have? So that moves out of the way and you can do what you do best. So I really think uncertainty, the challenging elements of sales, it's cyclical. There are all of these things that can be very difficult for people. It's my job to try to smooth out that path, to point out the direction we're going in and to remove as many obstacles as I can. As you're talking, and I'm thinking about your past work as a documentary filmmaker and as a graphic designer, part of what comes into my mind is this idea that you're actually kind of shifting people's narrative arc. Very much so. Even though some might look at what you've done and say, well, those are two completely different things, but what you're describing to me on a day-to-day basis is. Really that 100%, and you're the only person who's ever raised that. And it is a belief that I have that the graphic design work was really about organizing information for better communication. And I think ultimately, it's interesting. I was having a conversation with my friend Heather the other day, and I was telling her I think I'm discovering that I am a pretty good communicator. I'm pretty good at articulating complicated concepts, some that are emotionally charged. I actually think that might be the main purpose of my life is to figure out how to take a complicated issue, one where either people don't see eye to eye. So it could be sort of a negotiation or a mediation or something like that. But I think in many ways it's our own human experiences and trying to help people see that we're really not so different. We're really very similar. And that's why it breaks my heart when you see the way our country has become fractured in the political world. Because if we were really just sitting down and talking with each other, we wouldn't have these issues because people used to be able to communicate with their neighbors despite the fact that one voted Republican and the other one voted Democrat. But now we're doing it behind these screens with a degree of anonymity that empowers people to say things they would never say to another human being if they were in front of them. So I think really ultimately, communication, narrative storytelling has become my life's work in many ways, and I think I'm just starting to gain clarity surrounding that in terms of my own personal purpose. That must be such a great feeling. It is. It's a revelation. We were saying the other day as we were talking about it that we think probably almost two thirds of people just go through the motions of whatever somebody else has told them they're supposed to do. Then there's another percentage who really seek out what they believe is success as defined by somebody else, which can be very heartbreaking. I've met a number of people who have been very successful, and yet what I get from them is when you get down to it, pain or dissociation from who they are as people or difficult relationships within their lives because they can't be focused on those things while they're doing everything else. And then there's this other small percentage of us who have realized that that is not where the purpose lies and that there's meaning elsewhere. So then it becomes a journey of discovery of what is that meaning? What are we trying to do with our lives? What is important, what's valuable? And then leaning into that. And as I said before, that's a messy process. That's not a constantly rainbows and sunshine and flowers blooming everywhere. That's a process where it's hard. You fall down a lot. It's confusing, it's muddy. It can be painful, but ultimately it leads you to a much clearer understanding of the world. And I think as ascension being, as someone who has the power of thought and reflection, and to be able to educate myself in many ways, I think, I can't think of a better use of my time left on this earth, but to discover those things than to share them with others. You've mentioned Heather Shields a few times, and we've brought her on the show more than once. And one of the things that I learned about her after having interviewed her at least twice before I think, but I finally learned that one of the things that held her back initially was that she had not gone to college and it actually ended up being a source of her strength, but initially for her that did not make her feel strong. So I'm wondering what might in your world have been something that initially felt like it was holding you back but ended up being a source of your strength? And it's so interesting, that experience. I've met several people who have kind of gone through that in the same vein, and they're some of the smartest, most successful people I know. And it's amazing to me how often I talk to somebody who's successful and I discovered that there is this element within them that they feel as though it's a limiting factor, I guess is the way I would put it. For me growing up, I was a closeted gay kid living in a really conservative environment. It was at the time the town I grew up in was primarily a factory town and very Catholic. So you were either Irish Catholic, French Catholic, Italian Catholic or Polish Catholic, and I could tell which one you were by which church you went to. And so there was a lot of hiding there and shame associated with that. And what I've discovered over time is that is a strength because as I have allowed myself to become more authentic, more vulnerable, more open, people connect with me in a really interesting way. And I think it's because there isn't judgment coming from me. So the story I was just telling was that I will sit on an airplane, for instance, next to a stranger, and we'll just kind of start chatting. And by the time we land, its gentleman perfect. Stranger will say to me, oh my God, my wife doesn't even know that. Please don't tell anybody about that. And I think the reason is because there's no judgment coming from me because we all have our own stories, and again, we've all had programming and we've had difficult decisions to make and all kinds of things that have happened to us. So I really think that in a way that experience is a point of strength. And I have even thought about having a book project about the closet that we each have a closet, and it's not always about sexuality. It's not always about education. There's something within us that could be a limiting factor, that could be a point of shame or something else, but if we actually put sunlight on it, it's amazing how that can become something that can actually propel you forward. It can be a point of strength for you as opposed to a limiting factor. So I think that's really kind of where mine came from. I love that. And I think it's so interesting because you and I grew up roughly in the same time, and so what we have now and people's acceptance of other people is so much far beyond what was happening when we were growing up. You and I were growing up, and I think if you're somebody who didn't go through it, you can't even imagine that this would be the case that people would judge other individuals Absolutely. For being gay or for having other unique qualities. That's right. And it still happens today. Of course it does. Yes. And we're fortunate, I think in many ways to live in this bubble of the northeast where I think many of us have learned to embrace difference. We are interested in diversity, we're interested in having different kinds of voices at the table and not threatened by it so much. But there are still considerations. When I planned family trips, I have to think about, oh, is that a place that we really should be going and what kind of consideration do we need to have? I remember at one point traveling with my son's birth certificate, which had me in there as a parent. My wife had given birth to him, and it was one of those situations where if he's rushed to the hospital, if they're both rushed in and I need to make choices, I'm going to have to have documentation. I had heard horror stories about people not being able to make those decisions for their loved ones. So I think there are all kinds of factors like this that people sort of forget about. But what's interesting to me is I found when I was emerging from the closet, I had so much shame that I was making other people uncomfortable when I would tell them because I was uncomfortable. So if you're uncomfortable saying something, you're going to make the other person the receiver of the news uncomfortable. But what happened was is I got more comfortable with myself and I embraced it. I could tell a nun today and she won't bat an eye because I'm comfortable with it. So there is some power in that if you can, again, fear's a mile wide, but it's an inch deep if you can just face it and start moving into it, provided you are surrounded by people who can help you and support you and love you. I think there's a lot that can be done with that. It's so true. I mean, what you're describing, this kind of the telegraphing that we do to other people, I want you to accept me, but I'm not going to act like I want you to accept me. That's right. And I'm not even sure that it's conscious all the time. So it's hard sometimes because not only do we need people who support us, but we actually need people to reflect things back to us. And that's an uncomfortable thing to do is to reflect back to somebody. Did you know that this was the way that you were coming across? Because it requires a level of trust and a desire to kind of be in an uncomfortable space. And I think that trust element is huge. I don't think you can overstate that because working with some of the folks that I work with, we have a sense of trust and love for one another where we can raise things with each other and make each other better leaders. I'll give you an example. I'm a fixer. I'm the kind of person who wants to make things better for you. So if I see that there's a challenge you're having, I'm going to want to rush in and take care of it. I remember a bunch of years ago, we were in a meeting and there was something going on and somebody was a bit overwhelmed with the workload they had, and I said, I'll just take that off your plate and I'll just do it thinking, here I am doing this great thing and they're going to be so grateful for that. And she, after the meeting said, do you mind if we talk for a minute? I said, sure, absolutely. She said, do you know how in that meeting you said you're going to do that project for me? I said, yes, thinking that the next step was she's going to say thanks so much for that because I'm overwhelmed. And she said, that made me feel as though you don't have confidence that I can get it done. And I thought, oh my God, that is the last thing that I wanted to communicate. That is not where I wanted to end up. So I was lucky that she had the trust in me to be able to say that to me because now I think about things a little differently. It doesn't mean I haven't made that mistake over again. Sure I have, but at least I'm more aware, which allows me to make better decisions. And to your point about telegraphing things, when I have conversations with people that I think