Sheep Farming, Equine Therapy and Photography in Hollis Maine: Meet Nina Fuller

Hello, I'm Dr. Lisa Belisle. And today you are listening to, or watching radio Maine. I'm here with artists and photographer, Nina fuller, um, who works with the Portland art gallery and has created one of these lovely pieces that actually is now mine. So thank you very much for being here today and also for making possible this wonderful lamb photograph that is up on my wall. Tell me about let's start. First of all. Welcome. Thank you for having me here. It's beautiful here And thank you. And I want to talk about these lamps because they really spoke to me when I love your work. It's very farm-based, which makes sense, because you have a farm in Hollis, but in particular, there was something about these lambs that just really kind of spoke of joy. So these, these three lamps, this is one of those photographs that, um, w was, uh, obviously they're moving and they were coming out. I mean, a lot of my photographs, it's very still it's in the barn. It's that light coming through and, and I'm looking at it and I'm thinking, oh my gosh, this is what I do here. This is perfect. Um, this photograph, there is a space where it's dark in the back, where a lot of my photographs are, which I also like is the white and then the black, black, black in the back, but they're moving. So it's oh, it's oh my gosh. Click, click, click, click, click, click. And then you don't really, um, because they're coming out, which is happens very fast. And then, so I think, oh, this is going to be great. And a lot of times, once it gets onto my computer, it's like, oh, wow. I thought that was going to be really great. It's not what, this is one of those pictures that was like, yes, I, I got it. And these three sheep, these three lambs, it's a breed of not the breed that I race in. IRAE Scotties these are Carmel Scotty mix. So if you look at all my work together, you'll see this as an unusual sheep lamb compared to the rest of them, but maybe no one noticed, Well, now that you've told me this, I'm kind of interested because I have paid attention to your work. And if I was looking, what would I, Um, the, the other sheep are, have horns and black faces. And these clearly do not know. And even the little Lampis, um, are born. They black faces, they're white with black faces and they have little, little, the Rams are born with little tiny horns and the females don't have any horns. That's why, you know, right away when they're born, it's like, oh, it's a Ram it's. But at this age, if they were Rams, you'd see little horn horns, and they would have black faces. So as I introduced you, I said, artist and photographer, but I left out the whole artist photographer and I guess farmer Farmer. Yes. Sheep farmer, which Is a big part of what you do as these animals ended up appearing as subjects in your work. Yes. I mean, I, I, for the last 10 years I've been photographing sheep, um, because I have the sheep and they're, I think they're just fascinating. And I wonder how, like 10 years from now, will I still be photographing sheep? I don't know. I mean, the whole journey, I've been a photographer for over 50 years, which seems crazy. And, and each part of that time, there was a different thing going on. I mean, most of the time I was raising my children, um, was a single mom. I was doing commercial work and, you know, that was that. And I've too a lot of that now. So, So it paid the bills. It, it Did pay the bills I worked for. I did the, um, LL bean catalog. I did the land's end catalog. I did the, um, Dover saddlery catalog because I photographed horses. Um, before I was photographed a lot of horses. And I took a lot of, I write and I've written a lot of travel articles too, um, for Boston globe, mostly, but of course the Portland press Herald and, um, other horse magazines. And I started doing that mostly because I wanted to go on horse trips and that was a way to do it, um, you know, without paying a lot of money. So that was, So there's a kind of a practical element to not only, um, the work that you've done as, or as a writer and a photographer, but also the work you chose to do in commercial photography, The, well, the, the work, you know, the, the, um, LL bean catalog and the land's end catalog, and those catalogs also involved a lot of travel, which was fun. So I was really fortunate to be able to do that. You're not originally from Maine. No, I'm originally from New York. So how does someone from New York? And I think he moved here in 1972. Is that what I, I'm reading this an off the wall from, you know, our art gallery publication from a few years ago, but how does someone from New York end up coming to Maine and then deciding, oh, I think I'd like to have a farm. Um, well, I was born in, in the Bronx, um, and lived in long island Queens till I was eight. And my dad worked in advertising in New York city. He was like, you know, the mad men guy. So, um, we moved like the guy in Redman, we moved up to Westchester when I was eight years old and we had a farm. It was like a gentleman's farm. So we had a lot of animals. My mother loved animals. And then, you know, the sixties happened and sort of back to the earth. And I started reading Helen and Scott nearing and wanted to just escape. So, um, I was married very young and we moved up here in 72 and bought a farm in new Gloucester. And the whole theory was, well, you know, back to the years, raised all our own food, all around everything make our own. I mean, we did, I made our own soap, my own everything. And then that dream exploded and I got divorced and moved into town and that was 76, um, loss of farm. So it really, it took from 76 to 2004 to get back to a farm. So not that I was trying that whole time because I was really having a blast doing other things, but I always knew, and I lived in Cape Elizabeth. I raised my kids in Cape Elizabeth. And I mean, I always knew in the back of my mind that I would, I got to get back to a farm. I got to get back to a farm. So just, you know, I had to do other stuff, get it out of the way. So, and I went back to the farm, Helen and Scott nearing, we're known for the good life And I'm living the good life living the good life. And that was something that drew a lot of people to mean during that timeframe, this idea of going back to the land and really becoming self-sufficient and, and digging in and having access to tangible things. Um, but my understanding is you, aren't the only one who had that dream explode. Cause it, the good life is not so easy to obtain. I think at least not the way that they laid it out. I know it was kind of ironic living the good life and it did explode. Um, I think now, I mean, that was, we were a wave, you know, that was a thing you did then, but it wasn't in the whole organic theory. You know, there was a big group of people that were like, oh, it's a bunch of hippies and it's not really real. And now, I mean, people know it is, it is real. And now people are able to actually make a living doing it and people are doing it and the whole farm to table idea. And yeah, it took a long time, took a really long time. So, but it's more accepted now with makes more mainstream now. I mean, whole foods came and you know, all that. So, so You're just ahead of your time. Yeah. Me and all the other hippies did it. Right. So you're kind of laying the foundation. Yeah. So it's good. You were able to come back around and, and make it back out to the farm. It was really good. I mean, I really Cape Elizabeth, you know, it's nice, but it's Cape Elizabeth and it just, um, to buy, to have a farm like I have in Cape Elizabeth would have been, I mean, my photography career was successful, but not that successful. So I couldn't do that. So I just wanted some more space. I wanted space, I felt closed in and I wanted to walk out my door and be alone with the animals. And that's interesting too, because Cape Elizabeth itself was historically a farming community. Yup. And for awhile, I lived out, uh, Jordan road there on the Sprague estate. Um, I had horses and I, when I lived in this little, I rented my house in suburbia and move my kids to this farm so we could have the horses. And yeah, that was really beautiful. I mean that actually living out there made me realize, oh, okay. I, I need more space that wasn't going to live out there. I couldn't have my own farm out there. So yeah. Have you ever been out there? Yes. It's beautiful. Really beautiful. Yeah. But you're right. There is a dichotomy between capable as a best suburbia and they have a wonderful school system. They obviously have shore road. I mean, it is a beautiful community, but the, somehow the farming agricultural aspect of it is separate. I think That's, Yeah. I would think less attainable for many people who haven't farmed there for generations. Yeah. I didn't have a farm passed down from your family. So now you're out in Hollis. And my understanding is that, is that in addition to doing photography and having a farm, you also do some counseling. Yes. 10 years ago I went or maybe more now I went back to schools, get my master's in counseling psychology. Um, and because I, I found out that, I mean, I've always had horses and my kids were raised with horses and I understood the, just the value of being around an animal like that. Um, in, in growing up and mentally, and then I, I found out there was a program, um, that taught equine assisted mental health. And I was like, oh yeah, I already know about that, but I'm going to go back and get my master's and, and, and do that. So in writing, you have to write a thesis, which is, you know, horrible. I mean, it was, I would thought about it the whole time thought, how am I going to do this? It's just not, I'm an artist, I'm a photographer. I'm not, not the way my brain works. So I knew I had to develop something that I was really interested in, that I really was interested in researching and otherwise it wasn't going to work. So I created a workshop called equine assisted photography therapy. And I, I had, I held some of them, you know, I took a lot of photographs, I to fill up a lot of those pages and then I, um, erodes the, you know, graduated and all that. But, but the workshop turned out to be really great. I've given it a lot of times I've given it out in Colorado and, you know, yeah. It turned that turned out to be great. Explore that a little bit. For me, that's a, that's a lot of different elements to put into one very fascinating, um, program. So, um, photography therapy is an actual thing. I didn't really even realize that until, um, but so how the workshop goes is, um, we sort of think about what the issue is you're going to want to work on and, um, take photographs. Um, sometimes you'd come out, we'll go out on the farm. And sometimes, you know, what that issue is you want to work on, but sometimes you don't know until you see visually see it. Um, and you think, oh yeah, that, that would be a good photograph to work on. And so you take these photos, this photograph, and then we talk about the show, the photograph, and talk about like, say it's a pile of wood, some wire, and really a messy situation or a falling down fence, or, you know, we have a lot of those in a form and you say, you know, my life feels like this. It feels out of control. It's feeling messy and chaotic. And so then we take that. So sometimes you don't even know exactly how to voice that in less until you see it to you able to hold it and process it. So then we'll take that issue and go out and work with the horses with that specific and the whole econ, that's a whole nother podcast. But, um, and so then we do that, do that therapy with the horses. And then this is over several days and then come back and work on the photograph, like changing it. We have, you know, colors and sparkles or this or that or anything. It was just a pencil and, and say, clean it up a little, what, change the photograph to how you're feeling after the, this therapeutic, and then talk about that and then show that. And yeah, that's how it works. So it's a visual, um, visual thing where you can, if you don't have the words, which right now I don't have the words, but you have the feeling and you can put it down like art. Does that make sense? It actually makes so much sense to me really because, um, when I deal with patients in my family medicine practice, we do often get to a place where you can tell there's a really strong emotions around a subject and sometimes words, um, don't really capture those feelings very effectively. So I can imagine that working with an image or something external that, that kind of brings things to the surface a little bit more would be very powerful. Yes, that's it is. And the, the equine work, I mean, 90% of communication is non-verbal. So that's, you know, where the equine work is very helpful because you're working with a big animal. That's not really saying any words. And art's the same way. I think. I mean, sometimes it's just really hard to put into words how something is making you feel. So they go together. So I was able to combine my photography with my equine mental health work worked out. I mean, that's really powerful. I think there's a lot of, um, we spend a lot of time struggling with how to help people rewire things or reframe a narrative, or do things that, um, we don't necessarily feel like we have the tools to do, but what you're describing are actual tools that are very usable, that can really have a positive outcome for people. Yeah. Yep. It's good. And it's fun too. I mean, it's fun in a group. It's fun too, because we do it with, with phones, you know, I mean, when I would that wasn't, I started out doing it with little cameras and I would teach actually photography, do photography therapy with kids at, um, a residential treatment center I used to work at and we had to collect cameras. I'd put a big sign up at the Photoshop, is anybody have cameras? You know, it was a whole thing, but, but now we just use the phones and, and so it makes it fun because it's not like you have this big camera and I do photography workshops also, but this is different. It's not about, oh, we gotta make a pretty photograph. It's just, we ha we, we want to photograph a feeling. So there isn't pressure about having it be, you know, art, but then, but then they create the art around it, they colored on it and they turned something that was maybe had a negative feeling into something really beautiful. And then that feels good. Of course. So There's a doctor that I work with and she also has essentially a farm and she re uh, rehabilitates older horses. So she actually has a kind of a range of she's always coming in and telling me about, you know, this older animal, or she has a dog that came in with the puppy and the dog has breast cancer, which I didn't realize was a thing in dogs. But, you know, she tells these stories about her animals. And this doctor is clearly wonderful also with people, but there's a richness to the conversation when she talks about her animals. And I always leave the conversations, thinking like, there's a whole other story. There's a whole other world. She could be writing children's books, but even as you and I are talking, I mean, it's really not just children's books. I mean, this is a rich and powerful dialogue that I think, um, does take place that we don't necessarily consider. Yeah. The, the animals. I mean, you know, they speak volumes without speaking at all. Yeah. Well, I would say my little dogs, I feel that way. Yeah. I'm pretty sure the neighbors over here and me talking to them and probably wonder exactly what's going on, but I'm all right with that. I'm comfortable. And I think that's why when I look at your work that I, um, I do think it evokes this, these feelings that maybe we don't have the opportunity to tap into as often. I mean, there is something that in some cases deeply peaceful about some of the images that you shoot. Yes. I'm usually going for peaceful, you know, even the, the sheep in the running towards me in the fall when their wool is long and they're, you know, like the dog is hurting them, this is why even the course of photograph is stopping it. So it seems, it's just, you know, you're not hearing those huffs and hearing that, hearing me yelling at the dog down, but, um, even that's peaceful to me, I mean, when it's, when it's going on and especially when I've stopped it and I'm staring at it and I'm like, oh man, this is this, this whole sort of thing that may seem chaotic if you were watching it is I'm stopping it in a peaceful moment is this is the moment. This is why I do it because this makes me feel this certain way, but just to stop it and have someone else look at it and go, wow, that's yeah. So there is this peace within this chaos, the sheep. Do you think that that's something that people are looking for in this kind of crazy chaotic, challenging world that we live in now, is that opportunity to go back and have some sense of peace amidst more of a natural chaos? Um, definitely. I mean, for me anyway, and, and yeah, I think when you, you know, it's like when you look at the Wyeth paintings of the animals in the barn and that, that pig, you know, or that with the light in the barn, and that is that. And I like to have this in my photographs also where it could be 200 years ago. It could be at any time, you can't tell that you're in this time, you can't tell it that chaos is going on in the world. There, you could be anything. I mean, think of the chaos that went on 200 years ago, trying to survive, but when it comes to the barn and the, and the animals, they're the same, they're just the same. And my breed of sheep. It's a, it's a heritage breed. So it's, um, they've been the same for a very long time. Then it's a, it's a rare breed, um, because the wool is about rug wool. You know, now the wool very fine. I have a couple of Kormos, which is fine. Well, and those sheep are, those lambs are half Cormo. Um, but yeah, I like that feel. That's a peacefulness of not being able to tell when it was, except that it's a photo that half, I'm thinking about some of your photographs and the sheep, and there's an interesting texture to them. They're not these classical sheep that you think of with, you know, the bright white wall. And I mean, they, they're kind of a rough and ready. They look like they could, I dunno, the Cantor out of the Scottish countryside or something. I don't, I don't know if she can't do, I think that's horses, but, um, I don't know what sheep do exactly when they're running, but they're that, that textural element to them is appealing in an interesting way. Yes. That's, I'm usually trying to go for that in my photographs to show that texture of their wool. It's, it's amazing to me how beautiful that is and I, when the light is right and you can, it's not. So you think of like, if you're going to draw a sheep, it'd be the fuzzy be this round white ball. Right. And so to sh to just show that texture there. Well, and that's the wall of the Scotties that is it's long and it's wiggly and it's, that's amazing to me. So when the light is right, and you can show the depth of that, their will, and, and also their, their horns have these lines on them. That's very like a lot of texture and then their faces. I mean, you know, it's just, I'm obviously obsessed with photographing my sheep. That's a good thing though. You, well, I, I, the conversation I had with, uh, Martha Berker about her art and her conversation with me about flowers, for example, I feel the same way. I mean, I don't have sheep. I have small dogs, my small dogs. I actually find them quite fascinating in the fact that one of them, her fur grows a certain way. And it's this bright red kind of ready to take on the world, fierce little lady that she is the other one is this dark Lord. You know, he has this just smooth, dark fur. And then I think of the flowers and the flowers that grow in these various patterns. And it's amazing to me, that nature creates these things. And I just want to say, how is it that we have this growing all around us from a little tiny seed or a little tiny bit of life that starts up. And that's what I'm thinking of when you're talking to me. Yeah. Yeah. The flowers are pretty amazing that the, I, when I stare at a flower and I'm staring at it, I think how, what, how did that ever happen? Spirals and spirals and spirals, and yeah, I've photographed a lot of flowers actually to right close up. Right. And I'm like, sort of Georgia, O'Keeffe sensuality like, wow, this is just, this is just crazy. There's so many things that when you go down, down, down, down, down, down, down to the tiniest little thing, it's like when you're flying and you're looking down at the earth, whole earth looks in, in so many places, just like that tiny little space in the flower, you know, it's just fascinates me. It's all connected like that. So it's good that there are people like us in the world that understand this about one another. So, I mean, I, I don't think that it's an unusual feeling, but I don't think it's a feeling that people necessarily talk about just to say, flowers are really amazing, or sheep are really textured or complex, but it, but it is. So, I mean, there's something very real about it. Well, that's, what's, that's why I photograph and show people, look at this, look at this. Yeah. And people, you know, sheep. I used to photograph horses, like I said before, and they're beautiful. They're classic. I mean, they're, you know, when you, I would go on these trips and make the horses look as beautiful as possible, which is not hard because they're so beautiful, but they do have to be in a certain way. And when they're running, it's really gorgeous. And the main is flying and all that and horses and, uh, the sh so people seen that. They, I mean, they know that they're like, wow, that's how powerful animal, you know, but to look at a sheep and go, wow, that's how beautiful is that? It's a little more unusual, I think. But yeah, I love the sheep. You've had different phases in your, which you kind of alluded to earlier. I mean, obviously you started out in New York, ended up in Maine, but along the way, you've got kind of gathered a degree here and experience there, which I think is really interesting. Some people, they stay on one straight path and they're there from beginning to end, and they're happy with that. And that's good. Um, you started out as a painter and you were at art school. I painted an art school. Um, and I, I graduated from George Washington. I went to silver, mine, college of art, which I was listening to one of the podcasts, gene, Jack, I think had a show at silver mine, college of art. I liked that. They said the famed, silver, my college Bart. Um, and then from there, I went to George Washington university and I studied at the Corcoran and I studied printmaking with the graphs. And, but I, at silver mine, I started studying photography because we took everything, painting, photography, sculpture, you know, how you do that. And the photography teacher was a guy named John Cohen. And he, he, he was, he was just so amazing. It just that's, some people just did a documentary on John Cohen he's died recently. Sorry. But, um, he was, he was an artist obviously, and a photographer and a documentary filmmaker and a musician. Um, and, uh, he photographed, he was the part of the whole beat generation thingy, photographed all those guys and, um, hung out with all those guys, Jack Kerouac and Allen Ginsburg and all those burrows, you know? And so I was in school with him and then, and I was 19 and my father died and I was, that was in the summer. And so everything just dried up, like when that happened. And my mother was like, well, I don't know, you got to go get a job now and you can't go to school anymore. And so, um, I went to silver, mine and tried to get a scholarship. And I brought all my work, my paintings, which were very good and some things, and the Dean Dean gray, just, no, you're not. So, so, so I'm at home feeling pretty bad, you know, dad died and then I wasn't in school and I'm just sitting around. And, um, it's about three weeks into class. And Cohen said to a friend of mine, where's Nina. And the friend said, oh, she tried to get a scholarship, but she couldn't get it. So he went to the Dean and he said, oh, I don't cry. I think I'm going to cry saying this one. He said, if anybody does anything with photography, it's going to be Nina fuller. So call her up and get her back here. So three weeks into the phone rings and it was in gracing. Okay. Come back. So yeah, I owe a lot to John Cohen And that's, uh, that's just a fantastic story in the fact that you had somebody who was willing to really be your advocate in a huge way. Yeah. I mean, he literally changed the course of your life. Yeah. Yeah. That was amazing. And when they did the documentary on them, um, this film crew came from France and came to the farm and stayed there. And, and, uh, for a couple of days filming me because I knew him in school, I guess, to represent his teaching part of it. And it was actually, they were packed up. This seems crazy. Cause that's such a, you know, I mean, John Cohen and they were packed up and I started telling that story and they're like, oh my gosh. And I remember getting all their stuff on done and going back out to the barn. And, um, but it did end up on the cutting room floor, but in the CD of this film, which is now in all the festivals and getting a lot of, um, it's the extra, you know, they have the extra, I mean the extra. Yeah. Well sometimes It's good to be extra, Extra, But I, I, as I'm listening to this, it just reminds me that you can go into something and think that you've got an idea of what you want to do. Say be a painter, but maybe that's not really what's meant to happen. Maybe there's something else going on out there that there's some other path that you're going to end up following. And there's just no way to know unless you kind of trust. Yeah. And, and, and I think not making really firm plans about anything is important so that you can flow. But photography. I mean, ever since I was a little kid, I had a camera and I photographed everything. I see pictures that I took when I was 10 of like the horses and the dog, a lot of pictures of my dog, you know, and I had them in little albums and I just never, I don't think you know, that I ever thought that you could actually make a living taking pictures. I just, we've just taken pictures, but I always liked taking pictures. So, and I always had a little camera. And so when I got to silver mine, um, and it was like a class in photography, um, and then I met John Cohen and I'm like, oh, cool. This is, this is perfect because this is what I have always liked to do is take pictures. So I had a little light, dark room, chemical thing when I was a little kid. And, you know, yeah. It's always been there As we talk about kind of different iterations of your life. You're now allowing people to create an a writer's retreat on your farm, which, I mean, it's just the, when I think about the sheep that you photograph and the texture of their wool, it translates into for me this almost a blanket of your life that you've woven. And here's another kind of, uh, uh, set of threads that are weaving into your life with this writer's retreat. Well, there's so many things really don't want to miss anything. And there's so many things, which is why I went back to school. I mean, I was 60 something when I went back to school and it was hard because I didn't want, I didn't, you know, it was really though it was so exact with where you had to put the dot, you know, what, who cares really? Where the, you know, when you're doing the references, whatever, I mean, that is not the way my brain works. And like APA formatting for your bibliographer bibliography. Oh, yes. I can relate to this. Yes. Actually the hardest part I know I'm like, really, who cares? That's Fine. I'm very familiar with this. Exactly. I would have to redo it and redo it and redo it. And apparently somebody really cared. I'm like, really is this, isn't like just helping people the most important part. No, that dot. So, yeah. But, but, um, it was fascinating to me that, that like that type of therapy existed. So I wanted to learn about it. You know, it's writers coming to a beautiful spot. You know, I have a, I have a beautiful farm and when people come there, I don't think it's just me. They say, wow, this is, it's just a different feeling. And we walk in the woods. I have a grateful string that hangs a braided rope that hangs from a tree. And we, every time, I mean, I go there three or four times a day to the banshee. I have a bench in the back. And when anybody comes to the farm, we go to the bench and I take a picture of us on the bench and I have this whole blue bench project. It's called of people sitting at the bench. I mean, people and I have a couple of Airbnbs. So people show up at the Airbnbs and go, can we go to the bench? You know? So anyway, but the grateful string, we just stop and we say what we're grateful for. And it's just, yeah, that's great. That's a good thing. So there's a lot of different elements to that farm to my life. Oh, I think you said it well. And you said, I don't want to miss anything. There's just a lot of world out there to experience. So why limit yourself? Right. Well, I've really enjoyed our conversation to have I thank you. I've learned a lot about you. I'm sure there's much, much more that we could talk about because clearly there's just a richness to the life that you have lived. And I appreciate your willingness to come in and talk with me today. Thank you. This was fun. I've been speaking with artists and photographer and writer and farmer and counselor, and so many more things. Being a fuller. You can learn more about Nina, um, through the Portland art gallery, you can see her work at the Portland art gallery. You can visit their website. Maybe. I don't know if you want to take a class with her or you could go do her Airbnb. So many things. Mina's so many things. And it's been my pleasure to talk with her today on radio Maine. Thank you, Nina. Thank you.